I apologize, I don’t mean as in you by yourself, I know you have a very talented team but you’re the person here with us in the thread so I thought it’d be easiest to say you!
I admire that about you guys but there are some times where I wish you guys would have let some of the balance stuff stay implemented for a bit longer (like launch Gargos, for example). I’m not saying I dislike it, but it’s always fun to speculate on what could have been if the community was given just a tiny bit more time with the balance at the time. Regardless of what I personally think, I know you @developers are super dedicated to your jobs and know what’s best! No matter what happens, KI will still be my most favorite competitive game of all time!
I think the change will alleviate some frustrations with getting guess broken. It’ll also create a “predator” and “prey” meta when a break happens and both players see a juicy 50% of potential damage left to take or defend. I’m all for the change.
I definitely like the idea of potential damage sticking around for a bit longer. Would make the moves that provide it without any means for immediate follow up (like Tusk’s skewer) a bit more useful outside of a Counter-Break. Makes it a little more noticeable.
I’m a little cautious about how the change to potential damage (and breakers) would effect characters like RAAM and Mira, since I do like their Really High Risk-Glorious Reward playstyles. My biggest concern would be “normalization” of these characters, where they become more well rounded but don’t hit as hard when they succeed. I mean, we already have characters that fill that niche. I like having some wild cards that take work but can basically destroy you with a single touch if you make a mistake fighting against them.
Still, I’m open to the idea. These potential damage changes could be interesting. I trust that characters like Tusk and Mira will still hit like runaway ice cream vans, because that’s what makes me love them as much as I do.
Anyway, when I previously thought of this, it was at the height of the “guess breaking is bad” trend that occurs bimonthly. I thought it might be a way to satisfy those outspoken views indirectly, as opposed to other contrived suggestions which included not being able to combo break for x seconds if your DP was blocked. I thought of it mostly as a “what if?”, with possible unforeseen negative consequences of varying significance. Obviously PD heavy characters would need to be adjusted, which I’m glad was addressed.
One thing that was brought last time by @SithLordEDP, which I think is a valid concern, is that it might seem punishing towards players who play the combo breaker game patiently. You might be less willing to wait and figure out your opponent’s combo pattern and instead try to break early (with/without guessing) so that you’re not constantly stacking PD on yourself.
The offensive player might also not care as much about being broken. For example, Thunder might just opt for damage-heavy combos all of the time, which he is already afforded by the fear of a counter breaker. If he gets broken several times, he says “meh”, then hits you with one of his absurd mixups and then one-chances you into a high level ender with his top-tier damage.
In general, I like it, of course. It probably reduces some “randomness” in the outcome of the match (which I think is usually overstated by many). I think the balancing, however, might come down to what percentage of PD is left over after the combo breaker, be it 50% or something lower. I think some character’s risk/reward might be unintentionally pushed higher just because of how the math works out. I think that can really only be judged by the “feel” of it, and I’d trust IG’s judgment of that over mine.
I think this is a great idea, and I fully support the change.
It would, at a higher playing level, lead to a more defensive play style in certain situations. Right now there’s too much mindless offense. The risk is always minimal because you can always combo break, and counter breakers are hard to land consistently.
It would also help against characters that tend to be suffocating in the neutral. Kan Ra, Gargos, Aria, Eyedol, Jago, Glacius, etc. Combo breakers greatly benefit a character that can control space well because the break always puts them in a position of advantage (they work better at mid-to-full screen). Getting immediately broken after losing 25% of your health getting in is really hard to overcome. This change would help.
The only thing I’m worried about, which has been mentioned, is the large PD some characters can build without ever putting you in a combo. Those characters need to be properly adjusted.
In Season 3, there isn’t a huge reward for counter breaking or lock outs so guess breaking is rampant and rewarding. Couple that with the hard-read based change to counter breakers and you’ve got a strategy to safely guess break combos in situations where the probability of success is usually 50%.
Looking forward to see if this change equalizes the risk:reward ratio a bit and rewards reactionary and defensive play over wild offense.
If we do this, it would be in 3.6. I think 3.5 is coming to you guys before Thanksgiving, and it would not include this change, though it does have some balance tweaks of its own.
I worry less about the characters that do huge PD and more the ones that are designed to start a bunch of ticky-tacky little combos (Shago, Omen, Sadira) now being juggernaughts. When they win three neutral battles for every one you do as a slower character, the lesser damage in the combo and break potential gets you back with minimum sapping. But if they are getting half as much damage again two to three times more frequently than you are, I think life bars will just melt away.
I like the idea of still having PD after a successful break, but I also think not gaining any instinct after breaking would be a good change too.
I think the reward for breaking should be a little bit of breathing room, and recovering a bit of PD. Makes it less rewarding, and more in tune with the “risk/reward” aspect of the game. Breaking becomes more risky because there’s still PD, and you wouldn’t be building a valuable resource.
They aren’t dealing more damage or more PD than before. Its just that they have a little more time after a reset to claim some PD, and if you break them they have some PD left to try to claim. If they are doing combos with enders, its already cashed out and playing normally.
It does seem like a good idea tbh. It rewards the player for constantly beating the other in neutral which is a huge part of fighting games. It will force players to be a little less nutty in the neutral. Maybe look at the instinct gain from breaking too? My struggle to constantly open up opponents as Cinder the 2nd time around to get that cash out knowing I can lose it all in a blink of an eye is tough while other opponents can get that in an easy lockout. If the potential damage is still there it makes it a bit easier(especially against the harder MUs with strong defense).
As for reduction in the amount of PD for certain characters, I would like to talk about Cinder. He can get lvl 4 enders only if the opponent locks out at the beginning of a heavy auto -> light linker combo, if he spends the meter, or if the opponent was already burnt out. It’s already tough enough opening someone up when your buttons are obviously not that wonderful and the best ways in are through grabs, fired up fission, and constant bomb placement. (This is by design I understand that)
If the amount inflicted is going to be reduced then maybe consider the timers on each lvl for Cinder. This will force the opponent to be more cautious while still retaining the new amount inflicted. Of course this might not matter as much against certain MUs since they can easily use their other buttons if they aren’t burnt out either. However, that extra time added will certainly help give Cinder more time to try and break the defense.
I’m just extremely concerned for Cinder. Losing a small amount of PD can ruin him. He lives and breathes PD b/c his damage output is AWFUL without it. However, I expect you guys to get it right.
Thank you Keits and the rest of the staff for constantly supporting and listening to the community.
The reward for a successful lockout or counter-breaker are huge for most characters. Land a lockout on an opponent and they’re likely going to be eating at least 40-50% damage for it and up to 60-70% if we’re talking counter-breakers specifically. And for particularly high-damage characters, the damage can get even more extreme.
If that isn’t a big reward in a fighting game, especially in one where you’d usually only be getting around 20-30% on the opponent per combo otherwise, I don’t know what is.
I prefer that my tips remain on the aesthetics of KI. the technical side I do not compete.
But I can not find Maya, fun. I enjoyed very first to use her, now I can not do anything…too much nerf.
I also have the concern of how often will a Counter Breaker be used.
Since I am not going to lose all the PD, I can just expect the Combo Breaker and then look for an opener->Linker->Ender, which is less damage than the Counter Breaker, but still a low risk alternative.
Maybe a successful Counter Breaker should increase the PD a little bit? I don’t know, just ideas in my mind.
