Cinder's unbreakables need to go

[DurtyDee810]

I see that he used Wulf a lot at KIWC 2017.

[llPaulBll]

Interesting. I guess, in my mind, after trying to break the shadow and failing because it only hit twice I stopped trying to break after that point because I didn’t realize the bug had been fixed and (special → shadow special) is (opener → linker) and not just an opener. It’s a bit confusing. Glad there is an option here though.

@Infilament

Sure, but you can do this with auto-doubles and linkers too. Autos you could break during startup before the first hit, so you’d have a little longer than 1 frame, but not linkers (and naturally, manuals as well). This has been in the game since S1, so I’m not sure what has changed to bring it to your attention now. At least there is a breakable window on manuals when instinct canceled now (in S2 those combos led to cashouts and were unbreakable as you know), so that’s something.

Doesn’t matter to me if it was in the game before. For this character to have a one chance break with a ~1-frame break window (haven’t tested, that’s what Valoraxe says) is a bit too strong. It’s something they intended to fix, at least for autos, in S3.

[llPaulBll]

@SonicDolphin117

News flash: if shadow trailblazer only hits twice after an distanced inferno confirm, that doesn’t count as a breakable part of the combo.

Well, I certainly didn’t know that. It’s my guess a lot of other people don’t either. It’s inconsistent and confusing.

[SonicDolphin117]

@llPaulBll

It’s inconsistent and confusing.

A system-wide rule is inconsistent and confusing?

And forgive me if I’m assuming too much, but I feel like a high level player that’s dedicated to improving at the game such as yourself should be able to A) look at his health bar to realize something isn’t cashing out and B) go to the lab to figure out something that confuses him.

[Blacklash93]

Isn’t Cinder’s whole thing poor damage and chip now for amazing one-chance damage later? Unless there’s a bug, you have (at the very least) two chances to prevent him from getting to that damage in the combo system - and even more chances on top of that in neutral and his pressure.

And if he uses Instinct cancelling to make one of those chances extremely hard to catch (as all characters can do, although Cinder’s kit probably synergizes with it more), it’s something he can do only twice per match at most.

IMO Cinder is fine the way he is. He’s got some ridiculous stuff, but he has to work for it and he’s also got considerable weaknesses to make up for his strengths.

[llPaulBll]

@SonicDolphin117

A system-wide rule is inconsistent and confusing?

Can you show me another instance where special → shadow opener (that the system allows you to try and break) → ender results in being able to break the ender? I can’t think of one, hence the inconsistency.

@SonicDolphin117

go to the lab to figure out something that confuses him

Last I knew this was an unbreakable situation. I don’t recall the patch notes.

The fix is confusing.

Hence nothing to lab.

[SonicDolphin117]

@llPaulBll

I can’t think of one, hence the inconsistency.

This probably won’t happen in a real match but let’s say at distance from the opponent Orchid calls an instinct firecat and then combos into shadow firecat. At far enough distances only 1-2 hits of the shadow move will connect, and the combo will be opener-ender should she try to go into ender right afterward.

Off the top of my head, Glacius, Sadira, Rash and Kim Wu can cause these situations to happen.

@llPaulBll

The fix is confusing.

Hence nothing to lab.

Seems like the proper professional player mentality. If a solution isn’t obvious, it’s not worth going to training mode for 30 seconds and instead let it hit you over and over again.

[llPaulBll]

@SonicDolphin117

This probably won’t happen in a real match but let’s say at distance from the opponent Orchid calls an instinct firecat and then combos into shadow firecat. At far enough distances only 1-2 hits of the shadow move will connect, and the combo will be opener-ender should she try to go into ender right afterward.

I’ve seen that Orchid situation, and my experience was that it counts as a linker. LCD used that technique in the past. Did the fix for Cinder also apply to this situation?

Can you list the other situations? I can’t think of them.

[SonicDolphin117]

@llPaulBll

I’ve seen that Orchid situation, and my experience was that it counts as a linker.

Well it probably hit more than 2 times, then. If I recall correctly, LCD doesn’t usually call firecats and shadow firecat in from the distances needed to avoid hitting 3 times.

@llPaulBll

Can you list the other situations? I can’t think of them.

Glacius: Hail hits you, then he connects with shadow shoulder from a certain distance.

Sadira: Hits you with the last two hits of shadow blade demon (QCF+PP) after you get hit with an instinct web.

Rash: Hits you with a distanced shadow charge while you’re in stagger from the instinct bike. (Not entirely sure on this one if Rash’s shadow charge doesn’t force 5 hits).

The Kim Wu one’s kinda tough to explain so I’ll spare you that one. You’ll pretty much never see it anyways, especially with the characters you play.

[llPaulBll]

@SonicDolphin117

Well it probably hit more than 2 times, then. If I recall correctly, LCD doesn’t usually call firecats and shadow firecat in from the distances needed to avoid hitting 3 times.

No. Hitting 2 times and ender wasn’t breakable. I’m pretty sure this was in S3.[quote=“SonicDolphin117, post:29, topic:21629”]
Glacius: Hail hits you, then he connects with shadow shoulder from a certain distance.

Sadira: Hits you with the last two hits of shadow blade demon (QCF+PP) after you get hit with an instinct web.

Rash: Hits you with a distanced shadow charge while you’re in stagger from the instinct bike. (Not entirely sure on this one if Rash’s shadow charge doesn’t force 5 hits).

The Kim Wu one’s kinda tough to explain so I’ll spare you that one. You’ll pretty much never see it anyways, especially with the characters you play.
[/quote]

Cool. Thanks for the info. I’ll test these out later.

[llPaulBll]

Thanks everyone for helping me better understand the situation.

I think the instinct cancel scenario still needs to be looked at.

[DurtyDee810]

I conversation that didn’t throw the community or the developers under the bus??? Is @llPaulBll back???

Sorry for teasing but I’m very happy this turned out well.

[Infilament]

There are more character that can make shadows hit only twice as well (TJ with shadow powerline, Riptor with shadow tail flip in wonky juggles). I think it probably happens more often than you think, even though yes, Cinder is the most common case and was the main reason for the change.

It’s worth noting that on my website, I have a complete list of all the patch changes (all the way back to S1 due to some painful looking through google cache and some kind developers giving me the S2 notes after the old website was taken down and never restored). You’ll find this particular change was implemented at the end of April 2016 in the first patch after S3 launched: http://ki.infil.net/patchnotess3.html#3.1

All fighting games are full of crazy exceptions to rules, and KI is a very good example of that (why are Maya’s close range dagger projectiles breakable, if no other projectile is? why can I break certain normals before any opener has taken place, just because 3 hits have happened? why 3 and not 4? etc etc). So to me, this rule is just a simple case of “oh, I didn’t know that, now I do” and it’s easy to move on from there.

I don’t know what solution you would propose for making sure that instinct canceled autos, linkers, and manuals can’t lead to cashout. Linkers and manuals can be 1 frame break window if you are able to cancel on the 1st possible frame of hit stun (but in practice I imagine players will miss this window and give you more than 1 frame on average), while autos are more than 1 frame but effectively the same idea. I think it’s a cool use of PD + instinct + 1 bar that probably benefits Cinder more than other characters because of his reliance on PD, but characters like Jago and Aganos have used it in the past a lot too. If you’re struggling with the break window, you can always set the training dummy to do the combo and then practice the timing.

[MBABanemobius]

A good example of this three hit rule can be seen on Mage Eyedol, if you combo into opener shadow stomp strike (say from a meteor or jump in) and it only hits twice then an ender will be breakable.

[SithLordEDP]

Surprised no one mentioned omen throw into shadow slide.

[FallofSeraphs76]

Ive noticed since the new patch this is now much easier to break. But note that you can only shadow slide from an instinct cancel after the throw. This used to never get broken if I delayed the slide late enough. But now it hits 4-5 times guaranteed. It used to only hit 2-3 times.
Im not sure why or how this changed, but it did. It had too…this is my go to move and I know it like the back of my hand…and its somehow different now.

[BigBadAndy]

@llPaulBll

Thanks everyone for helping me better understand the situation.

I think the instinct cancel scenario still needs to be looked at.

Thanks for keeping it classy, and I mean that sincerely.

I can see why the instinct cancel looks dirty - I’m assuming the issue is that a Cinder master is using this to minimize break potential and cash out big PD. But instinct cancel is basically dirty in dozens of situations. Messing up/baiting breakers, baiting shadow counters, making unsafe stuff safe. I’m a bit lost in why this particular example is different. Recognizing that Cinder can use this to great effect, he still has to set it up by accruing PD and you are only going to get to instinct cancel twice per match at most. Recognizing that I’m not anxious to get locked out by this, I’m still not seeing anything fundamental about Cinder doing this on recapture that makes it substantially different than other characters using it in similar ways.

[LetalisVenator]

@llPaulBll

Can you show me another instance where special -> shadow opener (that the system allows you to try and break) -> ender results in being able to break the ender? I can’t think of one, hence the inconsistency.

Omen and Maya had similar things. The change was implemented for them as well.

[G0tei13Izaragi]

@llPaulBll

For a character that has been designed so centrally around the concept of potential damage and has so many ways to build it (enders, throws, shadow moves you can’t shadow counter, etc) I think any situation that should be breakable but isn’t ultimately creates an imbalance that isn’t good for the game.

Thank you to listen all of this cause with my english , peoples wouln’t understand what i mean.

This character get Pd for free where other have to work like crazy for it. sample “” sadira web Pd has been nerfed af and mister Burn my *** can have it for free without instinct.

RIOTS…

@ZDhome

He is a character that plays good neutral and smart rushdown to get above average rewards. But the ability to just run away and throw bombs that REALLY hinder most of the cast, and are almost impossible to punish, is pretty dumb.

Annoying Af SINCE PD patch.[quote=“ZDhome, post:7, topic:21629”]
The combo breaker grand finals had me snoring, in between spurts of REALLY cheering for wheels to beat that fraudulent a** cinder
[/quote]

EXACTLY MY FEELING WHEN I SAW THAT FINAL. FRAUDULENT is the perfect word!!!

[LetalisVenator]

@G0tei13Izaragi

EXACTLY MY FEELING WHEN I SAW THAT FINAL. FRAUDULENT is the perfect word!!!

Valoraxe is actually very good. He wouldn’t beat some of our strongest players regardless not to mention he had to play through almost everyone of cinder’s bad fights to win. Including waterhorses Glacius. So no. Fraudulent doesn’t describe him. It does however describe 2 people who have no clue what they’re on about.