Cinder's unbreakables need to go

In his current form he has

  • one chance break combos with a 1 frame break window
  • unbreakables using an almost-full-screen low into shadow trailblazer

For a character that has been designed so centrally around the concept of potential damage and has so many ways to build it (enders, throws, shadow moves you can’t shadow counter, etc) I think any situation that should be breakable but isn’t ultimately creates an imbalance that isn’t good for the game.

I’ll be cross-posting this into the bug thread to hopefully get some visibility on the issue.

6 Likes

News flash: if shadow trailblazer only hits twice after an distanced inferno confirm, that doesn’t count as a breakable part of the combo. So he either has to press something else after or he gets opener-ender. And the initial damage before the break point isn’t all that outstanding compared to confirms from characters like TJ and Gargos.

Also, I have no clue what you’re talking about with 1-frame break windows unless he instinct cancels a hit, which…anybody can do.

Cinder’s strong, no doubt, but I’m pretty sure there’s no bugs going on here.

11 Likes

You could probably convince me of this, but I’m not running into a lot of Cinder players. If he’s building PD that is worth cashing out, though, isn’t he already playing pretty well? If he can set you up for a full screen low into shadow trailblazer (which I assume hits only once or twice) hasn’t he kind of earned a cash out?

I’m not arguing, I just want to hear more about it.

2 Likes

(grabs popcorn)

14 Likes

As has been said, low inferno into 2-hit shadow trailblazer will trigger opener-ender unless he inserts another break point. This was fixed early in S3, making shadows count as a breakable point only if they expose at least 3 hits.

I dunno what you’re referring to with one chance break with 1 frame break window. You would have to specify the exact combo to help us out on that one.

8 Likes

All it would have took was 30 seconds of testing out your own claim to see that you are in fact, wrong.

Perfect profile picture for the situation, and comment. Lol.

On topic…

I don’t like cinder as he is right now. I think he gets too much guaranteed or near- guaranteed stuff. I don’t think he needs any close range changes, as I feel he really EARNS his OP stuff in close range, but I think his zoning potential is a little much.

He is a character that plays good neutral and smart rushdown to get above average rewards. But the ability to just run away and throw bombs that REALLY hinder most of the cast, and are almost impossible to punish, is pretty dumb.

The combo breaker grand finals had me snoring, in between spurts of REALLY cheering for wheels to beat that fraudulent a** cinder.

The pro-Gargos response was so surprising to me, considering how anti-Gargos the KI community has been for about a year now. I’m sure it had a lot to do with Wheels being the hero in that case (nice guy, American, overcoming a disability) vs the “villain” from the UK.

But like… this is such a crazy thing for me to read.

Cinder is a strong character, but I doubt his zoning is changing at all so if you are not a fan of it, you should either learn the matchup or just straight up counter-pick him at this stage in the game.

6 Likes

If cinder is suppose to hit you from fullscreen with his trail blazer then it should take a note from Fulgore and complete the entire attack once it connects.

Lololol the Cinder Player isn’t a fraud. He was just playing to win. I understand zoning isn’t for everybody but people gotta learn how to deal with it.

I have NO IDEA why DaytonJ picked wulf for the MU tho.

Edit: Autocorrect is my enemy

1 Like

It’s supposed to be a bad MU for Cinder.
(Wow, me cellphone’s autocorrect wrote Cinderella, LOL)

Is it? I wouldn’t really think so but I only have intermediate knowledge of Cinder and very lil knowledge of Wulf.

What I do know is that I usually never see DaytonJ play Wulf in tournaments I felt it was a off choice for him to pick a Wulf in that high pressure situation.

Regarding the MUs list the number favors Wulf. However like you I don’t think it’s like way toooo bad for Cinder. Wulf has some tools to deal with Cinder (I won’t call a zoner Cinder coward vs him, they obviously want him far away).
But changing Gargos for Wulf in that moment wasn’t a great idea if you ask me. However I’ve taken those kind of decisions myself.
If you are counterpicking at that level you should have that MU as fresh as possible.

It’s a bad mu. But Dayton was exhausted mentally at that point and valoraxe is a very good cinder.

Does it still cash out? How did I play an entire set with Valoraxe today and not notice something strange happening here? It’s still really confusing. As you can see, I had no idea about this. I just assumed the combo was unbreakable, as does Valoraxe apparently because we were both saying it should be fixed and hit 3 times. Was there a regression here? I’ll have to test tomorrow.

On the 2nd bullet point, he can instinct cancel his recapture and it shrinks the break window to 1 frame. In 18 games I broke it zero times. At one point he cashed out 100% PD with that combo.

Cinder’s favor in S3.

Valoraxe knows about the 3 hit rule on shadow trailblazer, when it’s gonna hit twice he puts in a manual to get the cash out.

I would like it if it did 5 hits guaranteed too but that could change other things quite significantly (such as his projectile invulnerable range).

Valoraxe is not a fraud…you don’t win Combo Breaker and get 3rd at CEO and get called a fraud…he’s good.

4 Likes

Sure, but you can do this with auto-doubles and linkers too. Autos you could break during startup before the first hit, so you’d have a little longer than 1 frame, but not linkers (and naturally, manuals as well). This has been in the game since S1, so I’m not sure what has changed to bring it to your attention now. At least there is a breakable window on manuals when instinct canceled now (in S2 those combos led to cashouts and were unbreakable as you know), so that’s something.

7 Likes

fyi