Cinders bad MUs?


#61

Hisako I do think is 5-5. I was just a bit nervous in case I had 200 cinder players kill me for saying it’s not 4-6 in hisakos favour lol
No but honestly it’s very momentum based. It depends who has the advantage on wake up. If you guess right you win. If you dont your dead

Orchid is a funny one. The things she has can destroy cinder. Some are plainly obvious such as her 3 frame dp which can punish every exploding trailblazer as it is -3.
Things like her walk speed is criminally underated in this mu. She can walk cinder down faster than you can day inferno (maybe not that fast)
And she has ways in (especially in instinct) with her slide to catch cinder throwing bombs. And yes I am well aware that cinder can just trailblaze and beat out her slide but she can also react possibly with dp slide. Honestly would have to drilled into your muscle memory but possible.
Her buttons are so god damn good. I mean I know cinder doesn’t have the best neutral but orchid really does do a good job in shutting cinder with her buttons. Her anti air is godlike and her fierce punch is great. Cinder can be kept grounded and be forced to play a game he isnt good at and that’s footsies. Which orchid will beat him every time.
And her damage just tops it off. I mean if you decide to burn orchid she has both good arms and good legs. Burn her legs and it gets rid of her dp and slide. But then she’s got her really good buttons. And vice versa.
I know I might seem like I’m not saying that cinder does have somethings. He has answers. Just can take a lot of careful thought, patience, planning and conditioning . Do i want to bait her do with safe trailblazer into block? Then I can start the tb into throw then tb afterburner etc etc. Do I want to establish space with bombs and inferno? You get the point. But cinder just can have a hard time against all this


#62

Hisako can dash under pillar on reaction (but a fast one)


#63

Props to you for sharing that. How do you feel about Spinal, is it not a bit in his favour?


#64

Cinder can fission hisako up on her wake up unless she has meter so she can shadow rekka. Or cross up bomb. Or throw.
Both characters have alot of options against each other. It all depends on the wake up game. Cinder can bully hisako just as much as she can so don’t be afraid of her.

Edit
Spinal is definitely 5-5. Again it’s very momentum based. Cinder has plenty of options against spinal. Plus spinal is weak to the trailblazer mix up game. Cus cinder can either grab or dp as well as block backdash or whatever tickles your fancy like cr. Lk to test them see what they do.
Spinal cannot power devour for free on most occasions apart from full screen inferno.


#65

Imo the Hisako MU is way more in Cinders favor, 5.5-4.5


#66

I like the boldness. But nah I don’t think so. Hisako can really put the work on cinder of she wants to. As much as cinder can destroy her wake up, she can too and turn up the heat


#67

And yeah defo we can play some time just messages me on xbox when ever were both on


#68

Fair point, but her offence works the same as for every character, she can mess everyone up in the same way. On the other hand, Cinder can shut her down on wakeup, as she really struggles with projecties: fission and bombs are a thing. Also, to bully her even more, we can combo out of grabs, where she is scared to do anything due to projectile pressure


#69

Yeah but a few good reads on her end is the end for cinder. She has the tools to make cinder look like an idiot and her the best character in the game. But it can also go very badly against her if the cinder player is on top. Her buttons are also very good and liking away especially with the counter hit trait.

EDIT also remember she can react to heavy fission with shadow rekka so be careful when she has meter
Edit No 2 She can also combo after command grabs if she wrath. And if your point is was that only if she had wrath that would go for the same as the cinder player having a bomb on her
Funnily even though they play very differently they have pretty much the same objective as of dealing with each other at least


#70

Oh, and people are not willing to sacrifice damage and often prolong their combos by adding linkers, which are always arms. So burnout has special implications here


#71

I’m not doing fission on her wakeup, when she has meter, its bomb and jump over on my end. Sometimes, I go for a fake fission, but I have never caught anyone doing Shadow rekka.


#72

That is true yet all you’ve got to burn the arms first. Then open them up again which if the hisako has good defence isn’t too hard as cinder has quite linear defence . As soon as the burnout dissappears hisako cam continue her game


#73

You should mix your wake up game with the bomb jump etc. Hisako cam foward dash and avoid the explosion if there is only one bomb on her. Fission is great for catching her pressing anything that isn’t shadow rekka. Plus if she guesses right on the bomb and block and if it’s only a small bomb it’s not your turn anymore.
Oh and please note that you are negative after applying a burn out ender. You cant just rush back in whenever you want cus of the opponent catches on he will take advantage over if you press buttons alot


#74

What is the optimal way to make fission a meaty @TDBH0TSH0T. Sorry to bother, but I believe it is super important, yet I have no idea.


#75

It is a very important tool for cinder especially against characters without a true wake up such as hisako, sadira, gargos etc.
It’s always best to do one after a hard knockdown just after you have through the bomb cus you can do for free unless they dp or use a invincible projectile move. Plus it as alot of plus frames (+5 I belive. I know medium fission fired up is +5 and shadow fission is plus a million)


#76

I should have re worded it, but using a meaty at the proper timing, Sabrewulf doesn’t need to worry about Cinder’s DP. The only meaty that avoids it is run slide. Much like Orchid, Jago/Shago/Omen they low profile the DP itself. So it’s a risk for Wulf but he can do it. The rest of them are safe if the dp comes out or if he chooses to block. Wulf is the only one who will be punished for being blocked. Another option is just to delay a command Back HP, if properly spaced, will avoid the DP and still catch his back dash. Honestly that’s Wulf’s best option. Cinder is forced to just block in that situation if he hasn’t committed to DP.


#77

Nah, she’s not particularly disadvantaged in that fight at all.

They are indeed. But Cinder’s bombs are pretty easy to avoid in neutral, and depending on your meaty setup she can sometimes just dash out for free (general rule of thumb is don’t get too cute with your bomb setup). Medium fission is negative (so not your turn anymore), and heavy fission is reactable if you’re looking for it. To be sure, Cinder has good options on a knocked down Sako - I just don’t know that I think they’re especially strong or difficult to deal with. There are definitely characters who beat her up worse on knockdown, and she goes even with some of them as well.

People are idiots. Hisako should run when she’s burned out, which she’s usually more than capable of doing successfully. If she has to fight, it should only be with kicks and possession until the burnout ends. Arm burnouts are very strong against Hisako, but it’s important to not look at that strength through a prism of the Sako players also making objectively bad decisions.


#78

This mu is even.


#79

I honestly still don’t think so cus even though once raam in his fine but he can still have a hard time getting in. And it just requires cinder to control the space between them


#80

It’s not hard to get to cinder compared to other zoners. Cinder won’t hurt him much through zoning either due to bombs being able to be absorbed. I’d say its harder for cinder to escape than it is for raam to get in. Between emergence and great air to air trailblazer gets shut down. And his safe jump actually does work on cinder’s dp as well as covering backdashes. Raam doesn’t re ally have to corner him either. There’s a certain distance on the screen where he’s just a wall cinder can’t get past. If it weren’t for burnouts the fight would favor raam pretty heavily tbh.