Cinders bad MUs?


#21

Don’t worry, he beats me all the time. Thing is with ARIA vs Cinder, you can react to an assist coming out by throwing a bomb so ARIA can never use fireball assist vs Cinder.


#22

The other thing about ARIA however is that she has answers to things like Burnout and Pyrobombs that none of the other characters have. The ability to make them disappear when switching bodies. Obviously that only goes so far but there are many things that you can take advantage of in this MU.


#23

Many moves have good frame properties if timed or spaced very particularly. Kim’s heavy dragon dance is generally -3, but you can make it plus if you space it max range or time it so that it hits meaty on its last active frames.


#24

I was playing my friend and he damn near curb stomped my Cinder as Aganos. I had issues with his armor and just plain Rolling or punching straight through any move I tried to do but particularly Trailblazer and my normals just dinked off him. I know I mostly just have to get good but any advice on this matchup?


#25

From my expeirence:

-Glacius
-Shago
-Gargos

But you can beat em’ with some practice. I struggled alot with Glacius but eventually found my up top so I can help you need anything there.

IronFlame knows what’s talking about. But I have to say that the very reason Trailblazer doesn’t do so well is because it gets stuffed even by a light punch, any normal can beat it. I’m only talking from experience though.

So you shouldn’t use it outright, instead use your pyro bombs and get it clear that they’re gonna play by YOUR rules lock em’ down and get in close detonate your bombs and while they’re in block stun close the gap.

If glacieus decides to kick you in the air which is a good tool for keep away but that can get annoying, timing your air light kicks can get him on the ground and at a disadvantage. It’s not easy, but if you can get the timing down and catch Glacius jumping in the air he’s likely gonna do his icicle kick. onceyou’ve put a stop to that the last thing I can think of is his hail, in that end keep tossing bombs and hope they explode close to him and move in when he’s down.

Aside from that tracking puddle punch, cold shoulder, you gotta be careful with those, Glacius can and will run you over.

That’s one way I’ve been able to deal with Glacius.


#26

No Aganos player is without his weaknesses, but remember that your heavy normals ignore armor, and throws do too. While Aganos is airborne as well, armor doesn’t mean a thing, capitalize on the moments and punishment windows where armor is ignored.

A good example is if you have a few pyrobombs stuck to him and you manage to grab him in a throw. From that moment, the armor is ignored and if you cancel the final hit of your throw into a pyrobomb detonation, armor is still ignored and you have a good opportunity to hit him for a combo. You can juggle, or you can knock him high enough to try and recap with crossfire for a grounded combo. Keeping it short and sweet can usually get you a quick level two burnout to set up for better damage.

Really though, the best thing in your arsenal to use against Aganos is a well timed Inferno. Inferno hits multiple times, and if timed during one of Aganos attacks, MELTS his armor chunks off him quick. It’s a meterless, multi-hitting fireball that absolutely clears him of chunks and removes his safety net. The fired up version of Inferno is even better because of the increased range, so if Aganos goes for a long range, long startup normal, or goes for a special from long distance that isn’t a shadow move, Inferno will typically remove all of his chunks and still damage him. Inferno is your best bet, at least, it’s worked for me a lot.

Just be careful of the range you use it at, because Inferno has a bit of startup, and at point blank can be counterhit or punished, but when spaced or timed correctly is excellent. Also, if you score a hard knockdown on him, try using the HK Inferno as a low on his wakeup, as long as they don’t have meter.


#27

Thanks for the aganos write up. I definitely struggled fighting against him but I knew it was probably just me playing the MU wrong.


#28

I haven’t had much problems with shago after I labbed him up more. I definitely found out that using trailblazer to get it it’s stuffed alot since it has low priority. If you ever wanna play and give me some tips/advice on my cinder just hit me up my GT is ADM Riddles


#29

Thanks for the tips. Yeah I had a big issue with the startup on inferno causing me to get literally steamrolled over or just punched through depending on which special he decided to spam at that second. I also tried using heavies to break the armor but kept losing out on priority VS his attacks when he was armored up. When I got rid of the armor I did much better but Cinder’s startups and low priority (at least I felt) where making it feel like an uphill battle. Just need to keep those tips in mind and get better.


#30

Well, Cinder’s only big priority issue is with Trailblazer, but without armor, Aganos is a giant hitbox, and is much more vulnerable to Cinder’s rushdown strats. Once Aganos loses his armor, he’s much easier to deal with, but that could be said of Aganos vs. anyone just about.

Still you have a good point, since Cinder’s HP and HK are so much shorter range than Aganos’ corresponding normals. At the point where Cinder has reach enough to hit Aganos with heavies, Aganos will be switching to his much faster light normals, and will likely bonk you out of startup.

Really, if you are gonna take Aganos at close range, be focusing on trying to grab him. You know your normals will be negated by chunk armor (except heavies), so you have to focus on what works best, and Aganos loses to grabs and tick throws as much as anybody.

Really though, another key thing is patience. Aganos offensive isn’t too overpowering, as most of his normals are slow, and slower with more chunks. Let him have the offensive, and be ready to block. Eventually he will take a risk with his offense you can punish. If he goes for his rock fireball, he’s pretty safe on block. If he goes for his spinning lariat, and you are close enough, go for a throw as a punish. If he uses either his rolling stone or big beefy wall breaking punch, on block those are huge punishes, and if you counter with inferno, goodbye chunks. Key thing, don’t get impatient and annoyed with his stray hits.

Fired Up Fireflash can punish a jump if timed well, or cr.HP works as a good anti air and is jump cancellable for a combo attempt, or at long distance jump ins, standing HK into LK trailblazer.

Also remember, almost every normal and special of his can be blocked with a standing block. He has very few normals or specials that have to be blocked low. One normal that hits low can’t even be cancelled into, as they tend to act more like sweeps, but with soft knockdowns. His fireball that bounces on the ground does have to be blocked low, unless you’re right next to him when he launches it.

Don’t underestimate using pyrobombs. At long distance, get a few stuck to him, and when he makes a mistake, activate and watch up to three chunks of armor disappear.

You’re biggest strength in this match is being more patient than Aganos. He will have to take a risk to open you eventually, and when it’s a big enough risk that backfires, remove that armor or punish appropriately with whatever is in your arsenal to punish him. I know it’s tough, especially since most of us who play Cinder want to be super offensive and rushdown by design, but this is one match where patience pays off, so don’t get agitated, stay level, and watch for the opening. He will have to eventually take a chance on something risky eventually.

Also, until you remove the armor, I recommend a grounded approach. Cinder’s airborne offense is too risky until you have removed the armor. Once the armor is gone, Trailblazer is much harder for Aganos to deal with.


#31

Ah thanks again for the great advice I hope it will help me on our next Fight Night.


#32

Ok I have a new issue in the Cinder Vs Aganos matchup. My friend has invented the Hit and Run playstyle of Aganos. He’s started playing keep away by doing lots if back jumps or well timed rolls that he just uses to get away while batting me away anytime I catch up with Trailblazer because it is so easily beaten out. He does this because well he’s a defensive counter style player and a prick but mostly so he can add chunks or build meter which he almost exclusively uses for that Shadow Rock Rain move that as Cinder I seem to have no answer or punish for as I can do nothing while the rocks are falling while he’s either walking up to pound on me/throw or just add more chunks. That seems to be his best tool in this matchup is the seemingly invincible no matter what you do Slam into Raining Rocks that he can use simultaneously for offense and defense, lol. My other mains like Spinal, Hisako, even Orchid laugh at this strategy most of the time but Cinder not so much.


#33

You shouldn’t have any real issue trying to catch up to Aganos, though at certain ranges, your method of approach may carry some minor risks, like getting booger flicked out of the air by Aganos. Using triangle pattern trailblazers in the air, you can cover a lot of ground that way, and if you don’t get anti-aired, you can hit the ground at a fairly safe -3 on block.

For the Raining Rocks, it’s best to try and just let him have those chunks, he can only get 2, maybe 3 if he’s lucky, but at long range and no meter, you can easily strip him of chunks with long distance air pyrobombs, or even with grounded tosses. You can literally throw fast enough to strip 2 chunks in the time it takes for him to gather 1 chunk, and while he may have armor, that armor doesn’t prevent him from taking damage or you building meter of your own. However, sometimes it’s just best to have patience, and let him have what he wants, and raining rocks is hard for anyone to contend with, not just Cinder.

Until you strip him of his chunks, be patient and play medium to long range. Cinder has plenty of tricks to do so, stick him with a few pyrobombs, and maybe use a fakeout fission to bait him or see his reaction. Make him believe that no matter his position on screen from you he is NOT safe, because it’s kinda true.

Be on the lookout though, as he may try and use that one infinite armor shadow move that punches you through the walls. It’s not throw invincible I think but at long range, he’ll try to catch you in the pyrobomb toss recovery, and hit you for major counter damage. He may also try and do the shadow rolling ball thing to catch your toss recovery. Maybe toss one or two and then do an MK or HK inferno as a precaution. If he tries to bumrush you with chunks from long range, the inferno should strip him of chunks before he ever gets to you.

An Aganos that plays with his back to the wall and gives you breathing room isn’t playing the dude right in my opinion. Almost anything the big guy can do from max range is too easily telegraphed and countered or blocked. You basically can pyrobomb him to no end and strip his chunks and health.

If you get a health lead on him though, and he still wants to play defensive, let him. When time ticks down and he realizes he has to change up into a more aggressive style he’s not used to, he’ll begin making higher risk plays to try and take back the health lead. Capitalize on his mistakes, and his more aggressive nature. Aganos still has problems versus shadow counters, even with chunks.

His armor may also prevent him from being interrupted, but it doesn’t prevent moves from doing damage to him, so Shadow Pyrobomb still cleans off a nice chunk of health if he doesn’t block it. And don’t forget that pyrobombs hit OTG as well. If he’s on the ground from a hard knockdown, you can launch him into the air with a pyrobomb explosion.

If he goes Instinct mode and uses the big bat, best to go defensive. The Equalizer has too much range and priority for Cinder to challenge usually, unless you are close enough to beat out the startup of his swing, and he has no chunks.

Basically, by taking to long range, he gives you time to breath and regain composure. If he has chunks he should be trying to pressure you for a confirm, Aganos has little he can do at long range.

The game with Aganos is patience. No matter the range you engage him at, it’s always a game of patience.


#34

Excellent advice again thanks. The Raining Rocks is actually the biggest thing in this matchup as he can use it offensively and defensively at the same time. He uses it more to shut me down so I can’t move while he either attacks me however he can or sometimes to get chunks but more for the shutdown. Once I figure out some way to neutralize that somehow I’ll be in better shape, lol. Thanks again for the advice on Cinder skills.


#35

When I play cinder, I do horribly against TJ.


#36

Is there anything specific about the matchup in particular you need help with?


#37

I have a hard time opening up tj for any combos, getting in and all his specials seem to cancel mine, especially trailblazer.


#38

TJ is a hard matchup, but doable. The key is to get TJ off his game early and keep him defensive.

If TJ is sitting on meter, do NOT press your luck on his wakeup. I’ve been hit many times by his whirlwind punch on his wakeup, as the shadow whirlwind punch is his ONLY invincible reversal. A lot of TJ players will abuse this move, as not only is it a potent invincible reversal, it launches for a combo as well, where he can recap with tremor. This lends itself to him regaining momentum as well, and that is what you must not let happen.

If the TJ player insists on trying to come in from a distance, Inferno should give him pause and put an end to his powerline abuse. Inferno will break the one hit of armor and stop TJ easily, but you have to be anticipating it slightly.

NEVER try to go against tremor in the air, you will never win. If you want to combat Tremor, fight it from underneath, not above it. The forward attack box on the move is too big and too high, going well over TJ’s head, but leaves TJ open underneath. Fireflash can break the move usually, though sometimes there are odd hitbox interactions that leave it as a trade at worst.

As tough as TJ’s target combos are, they are negative on block, and if you have good timing, light third degree combos can at least remind him of this and usually break some of his block strings. He doesn’t have much that can keep you under permanent lockdown, but you kinda have to practice the timing on striking back.

TJ is also pretty easy to break. Straight jabs= light, gut punches = mediums, uppercuts = heavies. If he goes for a damage ender, that knowledge can straight up prevent a lot of hurt.

Cinder’s normals are actually fairly decent in this fight. TJ’s target combos may have some reach, but Cinder actually can slightly match his normals, UNLESS he’s in Instinct. Being in Instinct definitely gives his normals an advantage chaging their frame data. The faster startup and recovery is potent, but off of last breath, it’s kind of a waste.

This is one fight where just being aware of what your normals can do is of great benefit. He may put you into blocking, but his overhead has some startup, so you’ll be able to fireflash against it if you should have need. If he tries to go for a throw using his back forward MP special, there is some startup on that as well, and even if he cancels into it, it’s similar to interrupting Hisako’s rekka, you just have to know the right moment. The roll move is projectile invincible, but not grab or strike invincible, so if he does that at close range, you should really be able to punish it.

Any offense you try to mount against TJ will benefit greatly from the use of pyrobombs. You just need them to give him a little pause and fear, and then he’ll practically let you in on him at times. If he likes to sit at long range, tag a few on him and observe how aggressive he is then. He may not be willing to chance his flying knee or powerline.

Remember that if you get the chance to go offensive, Cinder has a nice overheard he can cancel into and use as an opener. If it is blocked, you are at worse only -3. If TJ has meter, he will either try to invincible reversal you with shadow whirlwind punch, or more likely shadow counter the second hit of the overhead. If not, you can attempt a throw, a fireflash if you think they will become offensive after blocking, or you can backdash and usually create some distance to try and approach him again.

Keep TJ guessing between left and right, up and down, light trailblazer and heavy trailblazer can be powerful weapons in this fight. Light trailblazer keeps you somewhat overhead of TJ, and your air normals are far better than your grounded ones, so using it to get behind him and change direction is helpful, and it can be difficult to time a follow up against the move. Heavy trailblazer is your overhead. Cancel into it from a third degree blockstring, to see if you can open them up.

Always try and keep TJ on the defense, he is momentum based. Pester him with Inferno at range, tag him with pyrobombs, and learn to make use of your normals.

Medium trailblazer isn’t the biggest help, so use it conservatively. And while Cinder is usually pretty good in the air, Tremor will shut you down. Most of TJ’s air normals though aren’t too useful against it, though, but tremor will shut it down from a range where your intentions are more easily telegraphed.

Distance Inferno -> shadow Trailblazer for a good opening, and usually one they love to try and break, so it’s a really good time to attempt a counter breaker.

The projectile that comes from tremor that causes soft knockdown on hit isn’t something to be intimidated by, so don’t let it get to you. It does 0 damage, and is nothing more than a pestering game of his own. Even if it hits you, don’t lose your composure, as it’s a 0 damage move. Just be ready cause he may use the short down time to get in.

I hope that helps some, but if you have footage, that’s always helpful to pinpoint problem areas in your offense.


#39

Some rush down characters you go up against are a no bueno when using cinder


#40

TJ is doable. Cinder isn’t weak against rushdown really, but he doesn’t have as many options as other characters. He may not have some of the tools like a solid character such as Rash or Jago may have, but TJ is not one I’d say is the Cinder kryptonite. That honor belongs to zoners such as Gargos, Kan Ra, and Glacius, as well as some Shadow Jago maybe. Thunder is also a bit of a problem for him too, but that’s because as a projectile attack style character, Cinder’s attacks do little against Sammamish until it’s too late, or it’s extreme long distance.