Cinder is underpowered

One issue with this tactic though @Dayv0

This tactic does not work for everyone so you will have to change it up. example: Glacius can easily snuff you with hail easily and if you’re not careful you’ll run into it. Against Glacius you will be relying far less on Trailblazer, which is fine since he has other tools. It isn’t the god of all mobility however because it can leave you vulnerable. So against zoners it’s best to use your bombs.

I am curious though dude, do you know any good reason for shadow-trailblazer’s low priority? I mean it’s no where near as diverse or versatile as normal trailblazer, it only goes one direction and no where near the distance. It may go through projectiles but not far enough as say: Jago’s shadow Wind-Kick. The reason I ask this is because I want to know if you found any good use for it?

No one has ever been able to come up with a good explination for shadow-trailblazer’s terrible priority and lack of versatility.

As good as trailblazer is, I would never rely on this tool that much in certain match-ups since a good anti-air is all it takes to knock him out of it.

i think that is only in theory because characters have become very powerful. they can do more than full screen attacks, shadow jago could easily catch cinder and he has also faster normals. fulgore literally disappears for some time, glacius full screen attacks, new orchid,omen, almost all have something. Also cinder falls slowly. i think he needs that move to avoid these things.

well he is a pro character. i don’t think a lot of people can do that.

Of course @JEFFRON27, the scheme I put was very vague, without taking care of specific match-ups. It’s like saying Aganos plan it’s palce walls and take advantage of it’s armored normals. Its true, but some MU make this really difficult and you have to change your strategy.

About Shadow trailblazer, it has the same “issues” of all Cinder specials: It’s situational. Sure, Shadow wind kick reaches farther, but you can’t do it while airborne, for example, and thats another use Shadow Trailblazer has. It’s piority and reach are not the best, but it serves it’s function “situationally”. Same as Shadow fssion, Inferno or pyrobomb. All of them have “flaws”, but together, they can cover almost all situations.

That looked so sick but I think my simple combos should be enough, though the bombs after trailblazer will definitely add more to them.

I’d say Cinder is relatively low tier but I wouldn’t say he’s bad by any means, even without burnout enders. He has a lot of situational tools and victory depends what tools you use at what times.

In the air, I would never do shadow trailblazer with such low priority you’re gonna get knocked out regaurdless. But hey at leas tthat is a ton better explanation than anything at least, I wouldn’t use shadow trailblazer to get in unless I had a fired-up trailblazer going really that’s only time shadow Trailblazer can reac further than most.

Also everyone who has some tips to share post it here to:

Let’s turn some embers into blazing infernos!

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i think Cinder is the weakest character of the game. not like what he was before. He needs some serious buffs. he doesn’t have any strong forward move or any fast medium range normal. All of his moves are slow and weak and he either ends up playing cheaply with his bombs and infernos or he plays too much in the air which needs a lot of skill.as a result of this he is not fun and nobody plays with him. plus 1.) it is difficult to control his trailblazer direction (I play with controller) 2.) he always loses in AI vs AI matches.

2 things i would like to see.

1.) different input for his trailblazer, instead of back to forward kick, is should be like any fast second direction input + kick,so that he could again do his forward,forward + kick or up,down + kick or forward,up + kick,this could make him so much faster.trailblazer should also be stronger,it loses almost to any forward move. plus opponent should not be able to grab cinder while trailblazer.

2.) he needs a new mid range fast move, it should be like forward + punch,because all of his normals are short range (except his down + heavy kick, which is not an opener) and slow and almost useless, plus he has very short grab and loses to the most grab battles because of the distance ( i think he only wins hisako but she also has other grab commands).

You’ve been beatin’ to the punch my freind but while yes I agree there are a number of things that are not great for Cinder, such as:

The shadow-trailblazer has no and I mean absolutley NO Priority over anything you can get punched out like crazy.

There is a remedy to this however, depending on who you are fighting against. If you’re fighting someone like Glacius you need to use your pyro-bombs if he’s standing back to far.

Against other characters who are more physical in combat, you should be very careful. Don’t just throw out your trailblazer all willie-nilly I can’t explain wy this move has bad priority other than the fact that you can change directions.

Basically the reason Cinder’s trailblazer is weak is because he can change directions, now the only excuse I can make is shadoe trailblazer is not great, if you really wanna close in at a further distance you have to make sure you hit them with a fired-up inferno, but that’s waiting 8 seconds between those said states.

I also reccomand you use your combustion (down+back punch) into your combo tactics, and also use your pyro-bombs you don’t have to stick everything in there but ya get what I mean.

Cinder’s not just a simple rushdown like he was in previous games. You have to think a bit more with whom you’re fighting.

I will warn you that this is especially important against characters like Glacius who has very solid defensive abilities.

I really think he needs a small buff as well … It’s reply noticeable and obvious when playing as him , that there are some issues with him overall dealing less health than most others.

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while shadow trailblaze ris te only thing fundamentally wrong with him in my opinion you have to understand that your lack of damage stems from your incredible mobility. You need to light people with burn-out enders. That serves two functions:

Damage and Button enders

I know where you’re coming from. When he came out, I thought he was terrible. For the longest time I thought he was the worst character in the game and he would never be worth playing.

One day I fought a guy who was pretty good with Cinder and made him look like a lot of fun. I gave him another shot and spent a lot of time in the lab and lost quite a bit. Eventually something clicked and I started winning more and more. At this point, I find him to be the most fun character in the game and think he’s easily top 5.

If I had to give advice on him I’d say to rarely use Trailblazer in neutral. I only confirm into it or use it when the opponent is in the air. Shadow Trailblazer can be cancelled into from Inferno, so I’d recommend trying that out.

Pyrobombs are amazing, maybe the best projectile in the game. You can really pin people down with them. If you stick them and see them do anything (jump, dash, throw a projectile etc), just detonate. If they turtle just move within their attack range. They will probably react and you can detonate.

My favorite aspect of Cinder is how he can turn almost any punish into a combo. Anti airs and Pyrobomb explosions can be followed up with air Trailblazers. Inferno is good when the opponent tries to approach, especially when cancelled into shadow Trailblazer. He has great pressure tools upfront. Grabs can cancelled into a launch with a Pyrobomb stuck.

He’s definitely not an easy character to jump into, and if you have to put in quite a bit of time to really feel like you’re doing the right thing with him. There’s a lot to explore with this character. As a Cinder main, I really don’t think he needs many buffs. Once you do though, you’ll have a lot of fun with him and understand why he didn’t seem as strong at first.

Not only in “neutral”, you can use it during a juggle. If you have meter to spare, use a shadow trailblazer during an air combo, and cash it later with a shadow fireflash, or recapture into another ender!

Hmm…I’ll give it a try. You should share more info on this later. Ya seem to know what you’re doing.

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Everything in this game points at Cinder as a tatical fighter. If you want to have a chance for winning a hard match you had to rely on tatics using pyrobombs, burnouts, etc… And still high risk character to play since its easy to stop his shinanigans. But you gotta focus on shadow fission thats where his strenght are shown. And you have to be good with aerial moves. So it concerns me. Cinder figures in the game like one of those forgotten characters that most of the people dont like to play with. Remember Doctrine Dark? Yeah to me i guess people will remind Cinder like this kind of character in the future.

Cinder has a lot of issues. His gameplay aren’t interesting and rely on shinanigans. His redesing are silly like a clown fighter and nobody i know take him as a serious opponenent. The VFX still inferior to older games. It pisses me off that characters like Oni from SV4 has better VFX effects. Sorry but only new lightining ain’t gonna help him as he is now.

If i was going to buff him i could take his pyrobombs and combine it with 3rd degree. Cinder could no longer be able to throw them but use it as his gloves and deliver blasting punches so he could recover his old tiltle of legit rushdown character.

Trailblazer is way too weak. It used to be one of his main moves in the old KI but it dont serve him in the ground anymore. Once again, shinanigans.

Cinder isnt really Ben Ferris anymore. Just his clone with mental issues. Yep. A retarded clown on fire.

Everything you said up to this point is opinion.

Personally I like Cinder’s new look and I think he could of been made much worse, plus he has the best retro in the game in my opinion.

Also If we did go full rush down he wouldn’t be any more uniqe than Sabrewulf in some small manner. Obviously Cinder isn’t easy character to master, but for me, neither was Fulgore but I still stuck by them. I love these characters that much.

Nothing a little bit of practice can do to get better as Cinder. In the old KI, His trailblazer was good, but maybe…too good? I admit the new trailblazer is more on zig-zagging through the air than straight on but that thing was fast as all hell. Add his ability to pass through projectiles and now we have some possibly BS shinanigans on our hands. Cinder in KI1 was a tad OP, but in this game I admit, you have to work and think a little harder to play him well. Which is fine because it’s normal for figting games in general to have characters that need a bit more skill to use.

Cinder was boring and I wasn’t interested in him at all in the original KI.

I find him fascinating and really unique in this one

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If I had seen this I would have jumped in much sooner.

No offense, but don’t speak for me on this one. There are two characters I really enjoy in this game, and one of them is Cinder. I dropped Thunder for him, who was my main since day 1 or season 1. In season 2 Thunder just couldn’t keep up with the cast around him, and when I picked up Cinder and noticed the INSANE new level of mobility and freedom I never had with the slow walking Thunder before, I loved every second, Fulgores no longer could run from me and I had way better wake up reversals. Though given the season 3 changes, I think I may try Thunder again soon.

I don’t understand the logic to changing a very easy motion for trailblazer to something more complicated, and given that inferno uses a quarter circle motion + kick already, it almost seems counter-intuitive to give it this motion. I kinda have to lean on Occam’s Razor on this one, and show favor to the simplicity of the input.

As far as the trialblazer priority, I can understand why the regular versions show no priority. It’s such a powerful mobility tool that gains ground so fast and can be an opener under the right conditions, giving it too high a priority can lead to a much more mindless gameplay style. I will say though, I disagree with some of the shadow trailblazer stuff though, in the fact while I don’t mind not being able to control it’s direction, I would like it to have a little more priority so you can’t just be jabbed out of it. Maybe the priority of a medium or heavy, just anything better than a light. I would also like it to cover a little more ground, because as an projectile invincible move, it sometimes fails, namely against Glacius flurries where the linger for a while and you can come out of the projectile invincible frames and still get hit (yes, I have had that happen).

I happen to think his third degree chain is a pretty powerful tool, makes great juggles, pressure, cancelable into specials, block strings, and the full string can be executed on whiff, and the third heavy hit is jump cancelable for juggle opportunity. I can get a lv 2 burnout using it, a single pyrobomb throw cancel and a recap. So with all the usefulness of Third Degree, it has to take a hit in order for it to be remotely fair and not OP, and unfortunately that means range was most likely gonna get hit. They aren’t bad they are just situational, like a lot of Cinder’s game.

Also, his standing HK isn’t bad, and when spaced right can make a decent anti air normal, and crouching HP is decent too, being jump cancelable for juggle follow up. However, it will be difficult for him to maximize the usefulness of heavies ignoring armor in season 3, but anyone who plays Cinder effectively should know Cinder’s lockdown/rushdown style is something you have to work on, but it gets amazing, flashy, and creative results.

I disagree greatly, as @SightlessKombat can tell you how amazingly annoying Cinder’s grab actually can be, and is only going to be even worse in season 3 when you can cancel it for a free level 1 burnout. While it’s range is short, it’s fairly easy to surprise your opponent with and can easily turn into some powerful, quick combos without needing meter to be effective.

You also forget that trailblazer can negate a lot of projectile games in the fact that aerial trailblazer can simply fly over straight travel projectiles, like endokukens, fulgore blade and hype beams, horizontal searing skulls, ground hail, daggers. It’s extremely useful in that regard, and allows for a quick slam back to earth at a measly -3 advantage.

A lot of Cinder’s gameplay style depends on a lot of things, making use of a lot of his useful, but situational specials, and basically being able to condition your opponent to think before acting and giving them reason to pause. Once you’ve effectively conditioned them to fear you, you then have more free reign to control the fight and hit them hard. It’s a more methodical approach to the game, almost as thought provoking and challenging as any kan ra player’s setups. He’s not meant to be an easy mode character, just easy execution, which is to help make up for his less damaging options.

While his damage on his own is without a doubt weaker than any else, his burnout enders, which are very easy to use, give you a great deal of leverage and can easily turn around the fight very quickly if the opponent isn’t careful, giving you free level 4 damage enders for devastating meterless damage.

CPU vs CPU matches are irrelevant to matchup data and can not be used as a distinguishing factor for success of a character, it more or less just shows how well made or poorly executed the AI script running that character can be. You also have to know the computer (literally) cheats in a lot of ways, and in the computer match mode is no different. The computer actually doesn’t have to input directional’s or anything, it just activates specials, and dictates positioning and frame data to calculate the most appropriate counter move. It doesn’t care about mixups, resource management, comeback mechanics, etc.[quote=“Yperdaimonios, post:17, topic:6852, full:true”]
i understand he is more tactical. but ( except that i miss his absolute rushdown self) i think is lacking comboness with all of his tools , like you just do hits and bombs ,and eventually lacking some KIness.
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His ability to combo is probably better than anyone else in the game. He has so many options to punish into full combo, throw into combo, pressure into combo, he can open up into combo in a ridiculous number of ways, more so than just about anyone. He has invincible meterless reversals that can lead into combo, POWERFUL frame advantage specials and Shadows, surprisingly quick meter gain, my favorite projectile in the game since it’s so versatile and useful for lockdown, damage, ender scaling, and will now be throwable at the end of a trailblazer. He’s got some of the best mixups in the game and a really good instinct mode he can activate in the air and on ground, one of two characters capable of that. He’s got so many good tools, he needs to be kept in check, which is where the lower average damage comes in.

It does leave you at +4 on block, and sets up my favorite frame trap. I would like it to travel further though, as stated earlier, and maybe have a priority of a medium or heavy, if not a special or shadow.[quote=“Dayv0, post:33, topic:6852”]
Same as Shadow fssion, Inferno or pyrobomb. All of them have “flaws”, but together, they can cover almost all situations.
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I agree, the sum of the parts of Cinder’s gameplan are much greater than the total, and cover practically any situation.

I like Cinder a lot, even with him being as tough to use as he is, but he has crazy advantages few other fighters have.

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The best quote, imo. Totally agree.

(I should and will post this in the nitpick thread. )

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Everyone whining about about how weak Cinder is probably don’t know the right way to play him.

He’s not a zoning character or a rushdown character. He’s a trickster that tries to bait opponents into making mistakes and punishing them with aerial or grounded combos. You have to make good reads and be patient, not rush in like a maniac.

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Agree.

In other fighting games, there are several “character archetypes”, but in KI not always all it’s set in stone

Some examples:

Balanced: Jago
Rushdown: Sabrewulf
Zoning: Glacius, Kan-Ra
Grappler: Thunder

Some characters are very hard to fit in any of these.
Aganos has good rushdown once chunked, but it’s also a good zoner
Maya can’t fit at all in any of them, She is very unique.
Hisako has traits of a Grappler, but her counters and her hits when warth it’s full makes her more complex than this.

And of course, Cinder has tools for rushdown and zoning, but that doesn’t makes him balanced or anything. It’s what his personality its: A character that taunts you into making mistakes and make you pay for them. It’s a jack of all trades, he can fit in any situation and adapt to his opponent. He can run away, run into the action, punish you for touching buttons, do juggles like nobody…

Not a rushdown, but more…