Can this game become bigger?

I think doing things locally, supported by strong online presence, may help.

If you can’t get KI players to travel long distances to compete, maybe you can convince them to drive 15 minutes up the road.

Going to be dabbling in this if certain contacts work out in my favor. Speaking of which - @ISAAC813 , we should talk offline :smiley:

To me, everything that isn’t a pure reaction is a guess. This includes a lot of pre-emptive whiff punishes (again, more common in SFV because of the lag), a lot of walking into and out of ranges, etc. It’s smart neutral because it’s a lot of low-risk, low-reward guessing, and it’s fairly stable for the good players to win most of these small mini-games, but there’s still guessing in good neutral. Otherwise nobody would get hit and the game would be super boring.

SFV does test reactions well. You have to hit confirm 2 jabs, you have to hit confirm target combos, and you have to anti-air pretty well. That’s cool. I would like it more if the game wasn’t 60% laggier than all other SF games, but it’s cool. And SFV is definitely a game with a huge requirement to know frame data. I don’t think you can succeed in the game at all without a near encyclopedic knowledge of frame data.

I know what you’re saying, I just wanted to clarify my use of the word “guess”. I don’t just mean a pure 50/50 “will he throw or not, oh god I don’t have a reversal please be right”, which is the purest form of guessing possible and exists in all games. To me, a Vega player walking around your max range and pressing st.MP over and over again is him being pre-emptive/guessing. He earned the right to take those guesses by walking into that range, and that’s part of “good neutral”, but still.

I know, but a lot of people love to use the word “guess” to insult a game, and I hate it. So I get sensitive when people underestimate the amount of guessing that goes on in their favorite game, and overestimate the amount of guessing that goes on in the game they’re trying to hate on. That’s not what you’re doing, but it’s why I typed so many words about this.

How would you compare this to getting hit by Mika or Ken in SFV? In SFV, it’s kind of unrealistic to play perfect enough neutral to avoid the Mika/Ken blender, right? You can try, but you’ll eventually fail, because even Justin eventually fails. It’s no different in KI, right? You can avoid a lot of these setups by playing good neutral, to the best of your ability. Eventually you’ll get hit (because KI offense is crazy), and it will be more often than you get hit in SFV probably, but that is balanced out by the better defensive options you’re given too.

When you lose to Mika, do you just say “oh well, Mika is crazy, I could never have avoided those mixups so it doesn’t matter if I lose”? Or do you say “well it’s my fault that Mika hit me with irish whip, if I was a better player I wouldn’t have let that happen”? Somewhere in between? This is an honest question because I think the answer you give, whatever it is, applies to both KI and SFV to some degree.

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Your suggestions are pretty neat. Would be interesting to see eif IG can make the characters stand out more and of course give us some solid more hits >=3 that should be easy to fix.

Big KI fan here, been so since childhood!
Also big KI fan here, one thing I’d suggest you also add to the mix is how variative the characters in KI are. They’re not all a bunch of people from different countries but some are not even human which is awesome in my book!

Welcome to te community freind!

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Some of the issue with KI is the people that play the game in the first place. If KI had a larger fan base, then running into a rude person would not be a big deal, but KI is small and for its size there are a lot of rude players, and rude streamers. You have players that send you suck messages, instead of tips on how to get better. You have streamers bashing players, and screaming yolo. So how is the community suppose to get bigger when new players are being bashed before they have a chance to get good.

Take the people that got a early gargos for example. You have several people that could post tips and setups for those of us that don’t have him yet, but not a one has yet. The only thing that I have seen is them making money for themselves by streaming him early. Now I am not saying all of them don’t deserve the early access, because some of them do help. How is the game going to grow when certain players have a chance to be really helpful to the whole community, but choose only to help themselves.

Infil is the only one that should have the early access because he has created a guide for every character sense S1.

Skeletal also does a lot of posting helping with character setups and moves.

Basically there are 2 groups in KI. The “pro” and “not pro”. The not pro help each other out, but don’t know enough to help a pro. The pros only help each other and look down on non pros.

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Funny you brought this up cause Momochi basically yesterday showed that you can shut off getting in those situations pretty good if your neutral is on point which Momochi is simply one of the best at. And he played no other than Fuudo.

Thats the point i was saying - i see that if i play smart than those situations can be avoided to some extent (this includes all stuff like knowing frame data, the character chosen and so on). In KI there is just too much of these stuff where there simply is no answer and on top nearly all this stuff can be made safe and on top of that in KI there are situations where you have to take damage you just have to chose which one you take (arbiter cough cough, Kan Ra cough…). And maybe i am wrong but the situations where you have to guess right or you take damage in SFV are mostly unsafe for the attacker.

Again KI is its own thing and imo SFV is more honest to a lot of players than KI is. And even i that plays KI S3 a lot more than SFV think the same :slight_smile:

Just a short story about this:

Some friends of mine stopped playing KI because they got annoyed by the way some characters have a easy way to get in and ignore the neutral game (rush punch into shadow shield as example). Thankfully Gargos is so interesting that some come back to KI but still if they stop playing because of that and shake heads they could not be the only ones.

Regardless before i get labeled as a hater of KI i will end this discussion on my part :slight_smile:

The fact that these players did not came back stands on its own and as long as we dont ask them directly about this we will just speculate with our opinions that may be right or wrong.

Eh, somewhat true, somewhat not.

I agree there are cancerous streamers who instill a negative vibe in the game. I know who you’re referring to on the YOLO front and I used to subscribe to him, recently unsubbed. He’s too toxic and negative.

I think the early access thing was absolute garbage and a huge mistake by IG/MS. They basically alienated everyone else who invested themselves in the game and said “Hey look at what these people have and you don’t, your just not special enough”. I mean I’m glad they rewarded some of the dedicated folks for the hard work they’ve done promoting the game but I think they went about it wrong and insulted a bunch of other people who have also worked hard to promote the game. And as you said it served as a stream bump for those who got special treatment, which if you look at twitch as a form of business is BS to the people who can’t possibly compete since they don’t have the content to offer. Why should Rico (An EVO winner in KI) stream non Gargos KI vs. Gargos streams, it simply makes more sense that he’d just do SFV instead which is sad.

Anyways I’ve digressed a bit there. The other point I wanted to make is I’ve found many Pro’s to be more than helpful. They can be abrasive sometimes if they feel a question doesn’t make sense. But I’ve seen many instances where they’re helpful and will even go into the lab to teach and show people things.

There’s toxic elements in just about every community, most especially every gaming community.

It’s up to us to starve those elements to death; the negativity serves no purpose once it stops attracting attention.

I will agree that there are some streamers out there who seem to cast shade on the game when it’s convenient for them to do so. Unfortunately that’s not a thing that can be fixed outside of their own introspection.

Ok,I guess I should edit. Some of what I said. I do not mean all pros act one way and all non pros act another way. There are good and bad in both, but I was meaning for the most part, or over all.

I do know that some pro streamers are really POed over the early access thing. They feel it was given only to those that kiss/brown nose the KI staff. I think it was a big mistake to do that. They don’t know what other people do to support KI. Just because someone doesn’t stream KI does not mean they don’t try to get more people to buy the game. The way I look at it is if he was ready then he should have been released after the stream to all of us with ultra, and that way combo people would also get theirs a week earlier, or he’ll just release him to all of us who own S3.

I get trying to get rid of toxic elements, but this early release stunt just created a bunch of toxic players by dumping on some top players while favoring others.

Not to take anything away from Momochi, because he played amazing, but that’s just one set and Fuudo plays Mika with a lot more neutral than some others. Next tournament, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to see Fuudo step it up (and Fuudo did get 2nd place, after all, so he dunked some people along the way).

I’m not disagreeing that KI is a much crazier game… that is very clearly true. But I do think you can avoid a lot of its craziness with decently good neutral. Not all of it, but enough to keep the game stable.

If a player’s preferred style of game is very neutral-heavy, then I wouldn’t fault them for liking SFV more than KI. But I do think you get put in situations beyond your control pretty regularly in both games, even if you have amazing neutral (assuming similarly good play from the opponent).

Anyway, I’m just trying to get people to define the words they use, like “honest”, so that we can at least talk about the same things. So many people just replace “honest” with “good” (not necessarily you, but others) and most people can’t even define what they mean by honest in any reasonable way, or the games they claim to be honest are super dirty. It just bugs me, that’s all.

I guess that Justin left because he didn’t like the initial S2 changes to Wulf (TJ and Maya coming in super powerful probably didn’t help). I think PR Rog left because he didn’t actually really like S1 all that much, but he played it because he was sick of Marvel and wanted a secondary game to SFIV. I think FChamp left because Glacius took a lot of work and S2 Glacius had to be played a little bit riskier (fewer safe counter breakers, fewer one chances). I think for Justin and Champ in particular, they didn’t want to learn how to fight against a new character every month and keep up with the balance changes (which were more heavy-handed early in S2’s life, but aren’t that heavy-handed anymore).

These are all just guesses though, and I’d never claim to actually speak for them. Like you say, we’ll never know.

People will always find something to be jealous of.

I totally get speaking out against a negative element of the community, exposing it for what it is, etc… but the way some folks are acting like this is the end of the world is totally beyond me.

EarlyGargosGate™ pales in comparison to some of the ■■■■-storms we’ve survived in Season 2.

It’s true, there are a lot of contributes who’ve gone unnoticed.

Again I don’t think the people who got access are undeserving I just think there are a whole lot of people who were also deserving that got alienated by how this was done. And it’s especially harmful to the twitch partnered streamers who didn’t get access.

I get why they did this, show some appreciation try to build up the hype for release. But the execution was poor and the negative impact it would have on some of the games dedicated members was not considered.

To your point Marble it’s certainly not the end of the world. However it does leave a sour taste in my mouth. It gives the illusion that there’s an exclusive club of people who get special treatment.

Look at the names in that list - many if not most of them have contributed to KI in some real way out of their own time and money. The ones you don’t immediately recognize may have done so and you’re just not aware of it.

If that doesn’t grant you some level of exclusivity, I don’t know what should.

I do agree that it seems odd that Rico was left out; but I’m not an insider, and I don’t know any of these people professionally or personally so I have withheld comment.

Ok but at the same time they don’t know what others have done to increase game popularity or increase sales. To me it was just a group of people picking their favorite people or friends. I feel they look at it as an investment, not helping their favorite fighting game.

Well we know RIco streams a game a lot, supports offline, etc. I didn’t wan to bring this up but I think the example is legit. I ran a promotional stream for S3, I gave away 3 supreme editions (180$), plus I’ve purchased for myself 3 seasons of Ultra, shadow jago community fund, 3 Ultimate Toy figurines. well over 300$+ I’ve spent supporting KI. I’ve spent promoting the game locally, helping new players online. But they don’t know me, mostly because I’ve never cared to be known for that crap. And let me be clear I absolutely do not consider myself in the same league as most of the people on the list my contributions pale in comparison, but where do you draw the line? And that’s the problem. There seems to be no criteria, just picking favorites.

I was fine with Shadow Jago exclusivity and his color exclusivity. The criteria was made clear for that stuff. Same thing with special colors obtained from figurines.

I am jealous. Are you not? Gargos looks awesome and clearly I’m a huge fan of the game of course I’d like to have him now. Is my jealousy going to send me into a temper tantrum where I will stop supporting and playing the game? Absolutely not. But I will call BS when I see it. That’s me, I can’t imagine more recognized players like Rico who got shafted by this.

At the end of the day life’s not fair right. I get that, and I’m truly not nearly upset as my post may make me sound. But BS, is BS and that’s what this ordeal was.

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It sucks that you see it that way, because in saying this you are devaluing some serious contributions to the game and its community. But I can’t tell you how to think, do as you wish.

Totally amiss of me, my apologies - welcome, @INDIxion ! Feel free to add me on XBL if you’d like to have a go at a Hisako main. :smiley:

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I admit that I could be very wrong. Now, I just want to say that I do not think I deserve early access at all. All I ever see the streamers ever do is help themselves by asking for money all the time. Alot of us could do more for KI if we all had kids giving us money in our twitch account.

I will find out if I am right or if I have misjudged people when I go to combo breaker this weekend

Damn! Now you are exactly what I am talking about. Someone who did a lot of crap to support KI, And most likely not even thought of when it came to early access. You have the right to be bitter about it.

Twitch is full of panhandling. That’s the nature of the business. It’s not really that different from traditional media except that it’s a bit more obvious. Instead of your favorite show saying “Support us buy Dove dish soap” there’s a commercial in between scenes. With twitch it’s more direct. But usually entertainment comes with a prices so if you’re feeling entertained it stands to reason you pay a little for it. Many of these streamers treat this exactly like they would a job. 8 hours of work a day, it’s hard to grasp that playing a game is work but in many cases it really is.

That said the guys on the list have put in tons of time supporting the game. And many if not all are some of the most friendly and helpful people you’ll meet. There’s no doubt in my mind that they are great and deserving individuals. These online tournaments and other such promotions take countless hours to organize and put together. I’m not bitter towards them at all, it’s just unfortunate there are so many others out there who were missed in this.

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Just try and spread the word as much as you can. You being FGC popular and having a stream fab base would certainly help a lot, especially if you are talking and telling the viewers just how awesome it is :slight_smile:

The fact that you are here and posting is a good sign IMO. It does seem a lot of people are trying S3. Floe recently uploaded a video of him trying S3 out and he had nothing but good things to say. If more people who are known and respected in the FGC keep saying how awesome it is, people will eventually get interested and try it out. Best thing is they can try it for free!

Here is his video trying it out for the first time since S1.

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