BIG INJUSTICE between SHAGO and THUNDER and maybe others too

Have someone noticed it too or its just me ?

they changes the call from the sky move from thunder for no reason . but its ok, and now what thunder have in instinct SHAGO have it in permanent move WHY??? the murder of crow move!

so please give thunder something else in instinct maybe eagles fireball or something to better defend too against zoner and dont always run out and try to approach from SHAGO who are always running then monstrous non stopping fireball up and down.
put a balance between the players please thats unplayable aginst SHAgo always running away then fireball.
at least give every character something to do against fireballs. pleeaaaase.

Murder of Crows is still better, because you can cancel special moves into the dash, plus Shago’s dash startup and recovery are much longer.

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There’s a big difference between how Shadow Jago plays and how Thunder plays, and why this is actually fairly well balanced.

Thunder isn’t a fast paced character, he’s supposed to be a tank/grappler style character capable of powerful damage and good pressure, as well as some darn good normals with distance to them. He also has a 2-hit overhead and some really good mobility, surprisingly for a grappler. However, the point is with his character type, he’s supposed to put in some work and carefully approach his enemies and trap them within the corner, or lead them into making their own mistakes. Because Thunder is capable of some high level damage and some great pressure, the balance is that he has that low walk speed. However, his instinct grants him a brief period where he can overcome this weakness and close in on his enemy faster.

His instinct dash allows him to circumvent a weakness in his character type and gives him answers to situation he otherwise doesn’t have answers to. Shadow Jago’s dash is different by comparison in that Shadow Jago’s game plan is far more unsafe on block and much more tricky than Thunder’s. Most of Thunder’s specials and normals leave at much better advantage than S. Jago, where most of his normals on block can be punished fairly easy by an opponent on his guard.

Thunder’s dash is arguably better, being that he can cancel into and out of it with triplax and has less recovery than Shadow Jago’s. S. Jago may be able to cancel into certain moves from this dash, but both are HORRIBLY unsafe on block and are terrible pressure. These moves are more or less meant to catch an opponent who is off guard and unconcerned with blocking them correctly.

Thunder’s gameplan is more safe and more about effective pressure, and his invincible dash is really meant to circumvent a weakness in his design and give him extra pressure. S. Jago’s dash is more or less a means to an end and is meant to give him powerful but high risk mix-ups, most of which are easily punishable if ill executed or blocked.

If you are having troubles against fireball zoners, it’s something you have to deal with as a grappler. His instinct gives him his best options to deal with zoners, but as powerful as it is, the limited availability of the move keeps him from being overwhelmingly OP. The key to playing Thunder is patience, you have to walk them to a corner, push them back, be on your guard. When you are closing in, use you normals and specials wisely to force him on the defense and pressure him into mistakes. Giving Thunder a fireball won’t solve any weakness in his gameplan. Before Cinder launched, I played Thunder exclusively, and I know what trouble you can go through with him, especially against Fulgore.

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Couldn’t have put it better

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Call of sky was very annoying. I think the only solution for thunder without breaking the balance of the game, and also making him less uniqe from the rest of the cast is to maybe make him have the ability to get much quicker on the feild.

a very good point.

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a very good point thats right but now can u tell me how many thunder players u see online ranked : without ITAMASTER. ive seen maybe 2 if i m good remembering snaketwins and another one on 6 months non stop game minimum 8 hours per day.
thats i can say a barely unplayable character against all who shoot projectiles.
why dont to give him back his eagles fireball?

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Thunder came in 2nd place at Evo. The character is difficult to use against zoners but he has tools that let him get in and when he does he does some of the best damage in the game. He’s fine. Instead of jumping or dashing to gain space on y our opponent considering timing DP’s as they are quite fast and cover a lot of ground.

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man i understand all this point of view but thtas so annoying to fight against peoples who only shoot fireball up and down then dissapear farther and re begin…:cry: all they wait is to approach u from behind with the teleportation then give u a combo then rewind .

and if u can hold him what happens ? they do the annihilation :weary: yeah man a free 1 touch and 48 % in your face . thtas big injustice to me for the others characters .

everyone should do annihilation so they could understand what that give as feeling to beat lose 48 % for doing nothing. admit it guyz thats unjistice no other words.:frowning:i was so hyped for shago in the begin but now sorry i dont want him annymore if is that the best he can do. :angry: i idont want him anymore for sure.
tho in the stream from shago i was so hyppppeee :triumph: ! ill gonna wait till S3 to see what kim wu or tusk gonna look like. or maybe new originals characters from IG :relieved:

and what im sayin is nope only amateurs users or beginner who did this . the pro medail against who i fought
didi the same . thats so grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. so …

thakx guyz for ur attention to answered me .:kissing:

Match-ups are tough in alot of mannerisms in the case of Thunder you may have to just be patient with him. To give him a projectile means you’ll hardly have a reason to really use any of his other moves in the game just spam the eagle attack.

But often times finding a way to beat those said characters is what you should do first before you even call for a new speical move. I have difficulty against Glacius as Cinder but I have found ways to beat Glacius.

Perhaps you should call for some advice from someone who is a great player with Thunder and ask them how they deal with the issue.

I remember them mentioning in his story that Thunder’s geting smethin new with his call of the Earth, so perhaps you can expect something there.

exactly si it could be 50/50 on spam against fireballs spamers .
alsi ill wait to see this call of the earth :smirk: till there i ll stop playing with him .

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seriously if ur look at the matchup thunder shago thats 1-9 one must run after another indefinitely OMGµ

In KI there’s always a way around fireballs as Thunder yu can just try jumping over them.

^looooooooooollllllll how can u jump after non stop fireballs… ill post a video to let u see the situation haaaha

You do realize his DP (Sammamish) is fireball invincible right? As far as regular Jago, Glacius, and a number of other fireball using characters, this one move actually blindsides a lot of the zoner tactics, covers large amounts of ground, and if you miss the character, you still have a good chance to pound it to them with the skyfall follow up on their projectile recovery.

Giving Thunder a projectile won’t help him fight back against a true zoner archetype character. Thunder’s main problem is that he’s a big, slow paced character. Most people find it easy to run away from characters like that, and generally, playing runaway against a character like that, coupling it with an opponent player’s impatience, and you’ve effectively derailed the Thunder pressure game he’s capable of playing. The key to Thunder is being patient and being on guard. He’s not as brain dead gameplan style as some characters in the game can be, where all you need is an autopilot strategy to rinse and repeat. Thunder may be high damage, but you have to work for it.

That’s probably why you don’t see many Thunder players as you do others. While Aganos, Kan-Ra, Glacius, and several others are very technical and strategy oriented, most players who use these difficult to use characters often use intricately timed, strict execution setups to nail combos for damage and just learn to play setups off each move they execute. The problem is, the moment someone finds counters to these setups, it’s only a matter of time till the competition renders them useless. So these more technical players have to constantly find new tech, because someone is gonna observe these patterns and tactics enough, and show others how to break. It’s a constant cat and mouse game at work.

Thunder, while not as setup heavy and reliant, he’s also the one who has to work hardest at breaking these strategies, which is not an easy task. But considering how fast ARIA, S. Jago, Jago, Kan-Ra, Maya, and several others can put out fireballs really fast, no fireball Thunder can have will ever allow him to gain ground more quickly than he loses it. If anything, a fireball move will only slow him down, and the move animation will cost him more ground than he gains, unless it’s similar to Jago’s fireball where he can travel behind it, but I doubt they would ever give him anything that ridiculously good, at which point, Thunder would then become horribly unfair.

Thunder players just have to be more clever and more precise than the other guy. Most players know what damage he’s capable of and what powerful close range combat he has, which is why most would find it foolish to challenge him at that range. You’re basically asking the developers to change his basic archetype.

And Thunder versus Shadow Jago is NOT 1-9. No match up in this game is THAT bad, not even Thunder vs. Fulgore, which I do consider is the WORST match up in KI, is that bad. Thunder is no beginner’s character, he’s only for experienced and tested metal only.

And @M00NLightNinja, Call of Sky wasn’t that great as a projectile to be honest. It was TERRIBLE startup and recovery. It was so easily telegraphed and countered it was a useless tool, even at long range. Every character had an answer for it on reaction, especially since they dumbed it down from that awkward development point between seasons 1 and 2, where TJ was still available during the season 1 interface. The loss of instant tracking and switching to delay tracking meant characters with enough forward or backwards velocity could outrun it. The move was a broken mess as a projectile, and serves Thunder MUCH better as a buff than as an attack any day. I played hundreds of matches were I didn’t even use it because it was unnecessary and just bad. When they made it into a buff, I liked it way better because it gave me options as a wake up, mix up and as a meterless invincible reversal. Just holding on to it and not using it gave my opponents reason to respect his up close game.

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I don’t mean to be offensive but zoning is a commonly complained about trait in many fighting games. And it’s typically new players who complain about it as they don’t understand how to circumvent it efficiently. The problem is good/professional players understand and they study and learn their matchups and what they need to do to overcome it, the reason this becomes a problem is when said zoning character gets nerfed from so many people complaining about it the zoning character then becomes complete trash because the players who could already deal with it now stomp them.

I implore you thunder players to watch top level thunder players like guttermagic, rico suave, shin paulo and see how they deal with zoning. These are players who want to win and use the character competitively in tournaments if he was as bad as you make him sound they most certainly would not use him.

Call of the Sky was a bad move, it was only useful against players who did not understand it and how bad it was frame wise. His new move is quite good and can be used with setups to provide a powerful movement and mixup tool that he would only otherwise get in instinct. Do not underestimate the power of this tool. As a Fulgore main I can say with certainty I much rather deal with his old zoning tool to which I could trade with or punish on reaction than I do his new tool which wrecks me in the hands of a good player. Thunder blows kisses for 40% damage.

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:heart_eyes::heart_eyes::heart_eyes: hooooooooooooo man i luve u so much then all i have to do against fireballs is spamming sammamish wowww i didnt know it from now its gonna be spammamish for everyone lol thanx again :grin:i cant wait to try it.:kissing_heart:
i reconsider what i said.:sweat_smile:

thanx to everybody i love u all @IronFlame @LordWebster901 @DeathBlooms2K8 @M00NLightNinja @JEFFRON27
now how can i do to erase one of that topic cause its ended now . and i did two .:kissing_smiling_eyes:

It’s fireball invincible on startup and active frames only. On his way down, and during the skyfall follow up, it’s not, but by that time it shouldn’t matter. Also, the Shadow DP is fully invincible on startup and I think for a few active frames, I forget how long the full invincibility lasts on that one.

But yeah, regular DP is fireball invincible for startup and active, Shadow DP is fully invincible on startup. Just mind your spacing and be careful of when you use it. Always read your situation and react accordingly. It’s not a beat all move, but it helps immensely.

Test it out in training mode to get your timing down too if you haven’t already tried it. Also, turn on the hitboxes option to see some of the underlying game engine nuances to help you understand what’s going on.

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i see DP everywhere in the forum whats that??? @IronFlame

verry big thanx to all answers i had . thanx thanx thanx again

It’s a Street Fighter term, more commonly known as Dragon Punch. It’s a commonly used fighting game move where the character attacks and moves upwards diagonally at the opponent. For Thunder, his DP type move is Sammamish, and it just happens to have some good anti fireball use, not to mention it’s fully invincible on startup when you use the shadow version. When you go to the command list in the game, it should have some of these notes listed on the description of the move.

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