DP is also commonly associated with the motion Forward Down Foward as opposed to Fireball which most consider to be simply Down Forward.
In KI however there are a number of characters such as Cinder who have DP’s but use a different input to execute them Cinders DP for example is executed with a Down + UP motion.
DP’s are often considered a reversal move in fighting game terminology.
Many consider thunders Sammamish to be one of the best DP’s in the game based on the properties it has.
In KI I’ve done it all the time. Fireball spammers were everywyhere in KI. But jumping over a number of them was easy. Not only that but you also have shadow moves you can use to get past the projectiles.
@IronFlame well placed
@DeathBlooms2K8 amazing words!
@shujinkodidler you can take some advice from these guys, they sure know their stuff when it comes to that logic.
That’s the beauty of this forum, you have folks here who would be more than willing to help you out. So before callin for nerfs you should ask how other players deal with it : >
i do lol 
now when they spam fireball i spam i do spammamish lol.
thank u to all now i understand him (thunder) 
before ya o doing that it’s suggested that you may wan to rethink about just only using Smmamish cause remember in this game if you only use the same move over and over people will catch on. DeathBlooms just said you need to be very paitent in your approach dude.
Also; don’t forget be on guard once you knock your opponent because if you get DP’d your opponent will be able to get space on you. This is a thing that tends to happen with alot of characters who thrive in close combat
Sammamish is so good, they named a town after it.
lomfao u are bad
I feel the need to add my two sense as a pro-medal achieved Thunder main. In s3 it is extremely difficult to mesh my skill set with all of the old/new characters, & their attributes. I often feel very limited & stuck in one place; & thats NOT fun. I personally use him because I think he looks cool, not because he’s fun to use in the realm of competitive play. He has always required a very patient play style. In instances, it might seem like you’re not even playing at all (Which is also NOT fun). To be completely honest, in my opinion, the brute just doesn’t have enough to make it all the way. He’ll never win a tournament, or a major, it doesn’t matter how good anyone is with him. He just doesn’t have enough tools to compete in the realm of competitive play with some of the characters that are on the roster. If you win against a pro using Thunder, it’ll be because you got lucky.
What tools does Thunder not have to compete at a competitive level?
I’m glad you asked mate.
Since the new rebalances of the game in s3, his damage has been scaled down & he’s lost a few abusive tactics which I feel shouldn’t have been taken away for the sake of him lacking mobility to begin with. These very few facts alone scale him down the tier, making him the most basic character on the roster & not much stronger or damaging than anyone else in the cast; he’s no longer a real threat. In my opinion, Thunder may as well be a Tekken character.
He no longer has a tactic in his move set that can be abused like most characters in the roster. Everything, & I do mean EVERYTHING has to be a hard read in the realm of high competitive play when you’re using him. I play with a lot of the pros daily, & I find myself waiting my turn to play A LOT, & thats NOT fun. Even when I win, I feel drained and annoyed because of the amount of work it takes to get in and get the job done. It’s an overhaul.
He needs a tool that can get him in with consistency. In s2 that tool used to be the dp cancel. I’d much rather have that tactic & eliminate his INSTINCT all together to suit my play style. Besides, Thunders instinct only grants him what Sabrewulf has normally. It’s nothing to write home about. Another issue that I have is the fact that he telegraphs in what I feel to be slow motion. He’s very easy to insta-break.
If played properly, he can be damaging. However, using him properly isn’t exactly fun per…
Gargos
Cinder
Shago
Fulgore
Maya
Omen
etc.
I mean. . . the amount of patience it takes to use this character is just frustrating. Winning matches just seem redundant because I don’t learn anything from them. Yet I’m currently rank #1 & I don’t understand how. I just think it’s luck. People like to talk about how good his normals are, & the potential of his mix ups, frames etc. . . well thats everyone in KI isn’t it? Thunders normals are strong, but they aren’t that great if they aren’t strategically placed & confirmed. . it’s not like you can just throw his normals out . . first you have to place yourself into position to “possibly” throw out normals & hope you land something. Mean while, I’m dodging unicorns, horoscopes, & the jackson 5 just trying to get into a position where I can “hopefully” sink an axe in the opposition.
But, hey. Maybe it’s me just being a salty pants. I play Thunder because I think he’s a cool looking character that matches my personality.
First off, Pro star or not, I don’t think that qualifies your opinion any more than anyone else. I’m glad you earned one, but I don’t see it as any mark of qualification to speak on Thunder’s balance. It’s like the pro players thinking their opinion should be held in higher regard simply because they are pro. I’m not saying anything about you by the way, not trying to call you any names or insult you in any way, but offering a constructive criticism to approach the situation with a little humility. That said, I’m not trying to offend in any way either with the proceeding argument.
Second, I feel many of your gripes about this character come from the fact as a little hard to suggest as it may be to you, given your experience, I don’t believe you actually are using him correctly, and probably picked up a lot of bad habits that are now getting you in hot water online simply because Thunder’s insanity has actually been reigned in. He didn’t have much to reign in, but the DP cancel with how the move is now would be overkill. The removal of the cancel means you can be ground punished as well as anti aired for abusing a move that should be punishable on block, forcing a little more honesty in playstyle. If Jago had the same capacity to cancel his Tiger’s Fury on the ground into special, people would be abusing that by creating a wall of DP’s all the time, and it would be a situation similar to SF4.
This is personal opinion. I also think Shin Paulo and Guttermagic would have a lot to tell you about how Thunder’s playstyle is still solid, and in season 3 he’s better than he’s ever been.
Again, this is also another statement made with a certain amount of personal subjectivity to it.
Yeah, and with good reason. He still does better damage than most even without meter, and with meter to his name, he still hits harder than most. However, Mira has to sacrifice health for insane damage capacity, a sacrifice Thunder doesn’t have to make. Thunder also isn’t a true grappler in the strictest sense like RAAM, so while his grapples are damaging and good, they shouldn’t be on the level of RAAM’s, given Thunder has more mobility and options than does as far as combos, mixup potential, and a FULLY invincible meterless DP option finally, and projectile invincibility on the ones not fully invincible, he’s got so much over a true grappler, so the damage has to be the counter balance to all that opportunity. Tusk may be damaging, but that’s only because his individual pokes hurt, not his actual combos, which is important because his mediums and heavies can’t be cancelled on hit or block, so the poke damage is important, but in the combo game, his damage is less than Thunder’s, still powerful, but can’t hit 60% without a lot of meter. A similar philosophy is in play with Kim Wu.
His DP cancel was his only source of insanity that needed reigning in, which honestly, if you abused that tactic, it would only get you smacked by an anti air anyway. With the new knee followup to his DP, that tactic to traverse the screen is really useless anyway, it practically launches him full screen in most instances and leaves him at much better advantage. Also, it practically prevented him from ground combo punishment for a DP, as stated above, it was just too much freedom.
The way it should be. Luck and guessing should play minimally into any strategy, which is way Shadow Jago has been nerfed hard several times since his launch and is much more fair now in regards to his mixups and his overall radical playstyle.
Well, you did forget that Thunder’s Instinct dash, which he can get outside instinct, much more quickly now, is also fully invincible and can be used to cancel out of a blocked triplax. Sabrewulf’s dash is only a crossup, offering no real invincibility leaving him to be hit out of through merely spamming jab, and can not be used to cancel into or out of any move, or go through projectiles. His instinct dash also makes Skyfall safe on block, which is super good for offense and mobility.
I don’t see any of those characters being trouble for him at all, save Fulgore who has always been his kryptonite. Since S1, Fulgore v Thunder has, at least in my opinion (which again is open to a little subjectivity but EVO finals 2015 helps build my case), been the worst matchup in the game, well before season 3 anyway. However, due to Thunder’s moveset overhaul, I feel like this match is finally MUCH more fair. Fulgore’s anti air options are mindlessly driven to eye laser, and now Fulgore players have to consider spacing their anti airs CORRECTLY. Thunder’s new “slingshot” options make using his fireball pushback spacing much less significant a threat, practically leaping over all of it to hit them square in the face, also rendering the super backdash game less of a chore. It even kills some of the efficacy of the teleport shenanigans. If anything, they replaced on spammable tactic with another, far more effective get in tool.
Then maybe it’s time you experiment with other characters to find one who works with your playstyle. I love Cinder’s play, but I played two seasons worth of Thunder almost exclusively before Cinder dropped, and in season 3, I feel like he’s finally where he should be, finally giving me options as far as juggles and newfound mobility. He was never meant to be easy to use, and he shouldn’t have anything as spammable as portal punch, or teleport divekick or anything to get in consistantly, and I’m glad he doesn’t have to sacrifice health and meter to have his damage. He gets good damage and without having to extend himself to unbelievable risk or sacrifice to get it. In the end though, maybe you may not have the patience you want to play the character, or maybe you are just burnt out. Happens to everyone from time to time, and the variety really helps lift the edge a little to help gain perspective and readjust.
Thunder has everything he needs, but you’re right on the account he requires a lot more thought than any other character probably to initiate his offense, but don’t write him off as “he can NOT win ever.” I can feel the pain, as ALL through season 2, I felt he was just under equipped to take on a lot, with Call of Sky going from a useless projectile, to a hard to use buff that took forever to get and required intricate setups to utilize to it’s best. His DP served little purpose as an offense, and more of a tool to traverse ground, with the shadow version being the only one worth it to use as a get off me tool. It’s anti air use wasn’t exactly the greatest, taking a backseat to his much more useful cr.HP.
However, IG does monitor character usage and data, and they aren’t afraid to backpedal and change some things to restore order or improve a character. So give it time, and when they see how their changes have affected both the online and offline competitive ecosystem, they’ll make necessary changes.
Agreed! Also Pro star doesnt make you a Pro… a Pro is someone that is sponsored and makes money for himself and his sponsorship by winning tournaments. I think Pro star on online ranked has been given the wrong term and is used in the wrong context.
** I stand corrected… great job on the top 32 star… but as Iron flame said… it doesnt matter when giving you opinion… So I would suggest humbling up a bit and not gloat about pro stars if you want people to take your posts seriously and not focus on pro stars or lack there of.
thunder is just a viable as other characters…its all about the player. If thunder is low tier, then nearly the rest of the cast is low tier. Seems like his is pretty decent if you are able to place top 5 in ranked…even though its only 6 days into the Ranked calendar.
Maybe this was taken out of context. My only intent in mentioning my rank was to induce the understanding of my experience level considering that there are obviously those who are more or less experienced in the this particular FG than I am. The only thing that qualifies my opinion on his balance is my personal high competitive experience with him, & my own opinion in accordance to him, thats it; & that’s not something that I feel should or would set precedence over anyone else’s opinion. Less about humility and more about understanding in this regard.
I’m trying my damness to stick it out with this guy, but yesterday was a very frustrating day. You actually play thunder, so I know you know lol.
I hope he gets something extra . . Like a way to eliminate COS dashes on accident once they’ve been buffed. Thats so annoying. I’d imagine the only way to do this would be a new command for the dash, & I’d be fine with that.
In all, thanks for your response. . you’re always quite the insightful one.
Given the performances at EVO and through so much footage, I can say now I’m starting to come over to your side of the argument. While Thunder has many wonderful tools to confront and play against many enemies, he requires a lot more patience and thought to play, and do believe his ability to produce results in a major tournament setting like EVO is limited. Considering so many assist and lockdown strategies in play from some characters, I can start to understand the true frustration you must feel. I like Thunder too, and perhaps maybe my fondness from season 1 and season 2 play blinded me to a little of the valid concerns you have brought up.
I will say he is not useless or low tier, but I will say he will undoubtedly have more bad matchups than usually probably. While his toolset is powerful, he’s a character who struggle against a great deal of what most other characters can accomplish. I do believe he can still be a powerful and useful counter pick, as he can shake ground against players who are unfamiliar on how to approach him, or in general can not stack against his imposing figure and close range pressure.
So I gotta say, you do hold really good judgment, and I offer my apologies for underestimating you on that. Thunder definitely requires what probably is more thought and strategy to his fights than most, but his style gives him super advantage for what he does. It’s just unfortunate that his strategy isn’t universally strong against every matchup in the game, or at least in most cases evenly competitive.
I will also say this, I don’t blame you for venting either. With a character you have to be so carefully cerebral and calculating, it could be mentally frustrating and exhausting to play him exclusively. So props to you.
It was actually named after Lake Sammamish, which isn’t too far from Nintendo of America in Redmond, Wa., though both the lake & town’s name come from the Sammamish Native American tribe.