Showcase what the golem has to offer within his move set to make the most of the situation!
So I have a few gimmicky things I do and I want to know if they’re decent, bad habits or should be forgotten all together.
I often times do a low rock as a meaty on the opponents wakeup, how safe is this? I’d assume it can be blown up by projectile invulnerable moves but do you guys feel the recovery on the low rock is good enough? Maybe only good for hard knockdowns? I like to do that sometimes when I know the opponent is panicking, it’s also nice to follow it up with a jump in for a very ghetto but effective at low level low/high.
Also with Low rock sometimes I’ll use it to roll in, trying to cover the recovery with it or catching them with either the roll or the rock. Or even cancel into into Rock Rain(that’s what I call it anyways), which I catch people with quite often or they block and I get to chunk up 2 or 3 times. How good is that? Is it even a high low? Is it ever truly safe without canceling roll into Instinct? And since we’re on the topic of roll, I’ve seen good Aganos’ control the momentum in some funky ways, I know you can jump with it but is there a way to control speed, or manipulate momentum to move differently? I always just end up rolling straight forward at the same speed. I know you can hold it to delay it so I’m more so talking about after you’re in motion.
As for when to chunk up and when to not, is it only truly safe after throw, cr HK and round enders? Or do certain enders with Aganos leave them knockdown for certain. And with Aganos’ throw it seems to be only safe with back throw, I’ve been thrown or wakeup reversaled plenty of times when throwing someone while they’re cornered.
Now for Pulverizer, is it smart to cancel into it on close/medium range pokes? I know it’s a block string but it seems easy to counter break. I try and switch up the strength to make it harder to shadow counter but I’m curious what your guys’ take is on using the move as the safe poke cancel that’s easy to hit confirm.
I’m also curious about what you guys do with the Club, more specifically how you approach with it and hit confirm off it. Like when you get a j.HP with it it restands for a followup. I generally go into a cr HP and recycle if I can, but is that safe? Is there a better option? Maybe cr HP into wall placement or chunk up? Would doing the HK sweep be better than the cr HP? You can also go into a light or medium club normal and cancel into roll or your dash punch special it seems.
I think that’s everything on my mind right now, hope this thread gets used and we can start talking about these sort of things and I can contribute more once I learn and get better.
OS on Shadow Jago in the corner.
Just a few things I like to point out based on personal experience. I could be wrong on some of these:
HK/close MP > Rock Rain. Good combo for chunking up or setting up the stage with whatever you like.
Chunking up is still only truly safe on forward throw. Back throw is iffy with as much as two chunks, and even less when the opponent has shadow meter.
Natural Disaster’s momentum can indeed be manipulated by either tilting the stick down-away, up-away, or down-forward. Do up-away momentum immediately after Light roll and it looks almost like a short uppercut. Perhaps in a future-patch, they can fix it so up-away stops Light roll’s momentum entirely and make it go straight up to make it another anti-air.
Go for a tick throw, or just a throw setup in general after a wall-splat, but at the last second activate Shadow Pulverize. If the timing (and of course read) was right, the opponent should be anticipating the throw input with one of his own, and Sh. Pulverize’s throw invulnerability should catch them for a combo.
F. HK combo can sometimes act as funny counter-breaker bait. If you actually find yourself able to land multiple F. HKs, the opponent tends to try to put a stop to it after the 5th stomp. Of course this is just based on behavioral statistics on my end.
With proper timing and at least one armor chunk, you can catch TJ Combo off of his Instinct Ressurection recovery one way or another. When equipped with one chunk, the animation for Rock Rain seems to never be interrupted by his shockwave, so wait 1-2 seconds after first KO to activate the shadow move. If timed properly, TJ should go flying with the pound and leave you time to set the stage for round two (or if you still have enough chunks, throw two at him while mid-air and finish him off with a Ruin). If you want to be more safe with it, just activate Rock Rain instantly after 1st KO so that by the time he’s back up, he’s forced to block the avalanche and have his momentum taken away almost entirely.
What’s the best follow-up to cr. HP, especially after catching their jump-in? There’s Light and Medium Ruin, but it gets tricky to determine which one is appropriate based on their height and how chunked you are. Miscalculating it can lead to a quick recovery turned combo of their own. Medium Payload Assault is a neat quick follow-up that does less damage, but is safer and sends them back to full screen. The downside of this is obviously the one less chunk you have now. Depending on the opponent’s character and how chunked you are, you can get that lost chunk back, even while they’re just landing, but it’s still a risk. So are there any more follow-ups I’m missing, and if not, which one’s the more optimal of the two listed here?
It honestly depends on what character you’re fighting. I think it’s a good move to use sparingly on your opponent. The recovery on it fast enough (I think it has the fastest recovery of any projectile in the game, is that true?) that if they block it you’re guaranteed either a throw or an overhead, or if you’re really daring, a sweep right in there face or a neutral jump to blow up their throw attempt. The low rock is extremely advantage on both hit and block so it’s also a safe way to get yourself out of a situation you might think might turn sour.
Usually a Heavy Ruin will be your best bet but only up to 2 chunks. Anything more will be way too hard to land any specials consistently. You can try for a Shadow Natural Disaster but I’ve found the timing on that to be extremely tight.
Since obtaining the club has been made a whole lot more convenient and useful in Season 3, what I’ve been doing as of late is usually land a forward throw and then immediately place a wall behind me and grab the club from it. That puts them at about the max distance for MP > HP/cr.HP to connect and I will use the two hitting combo to get a knockdown and reset the club strength. This will usually at least net you a couple of knockdowns if you can get the right reads on them. After landing that a couple of times, you can then throw the club if they jump or place it as a wall behind them and try to Shadow Ruin them through it as they’re going to attempt to escape getting hit by the 2-hit club combo (or as I like to call it, the Clombo!) again.
I also like to throw a low chunk from full screen and then usually follow up with a medium chunk to catch their jump. I know a lot of people like to use a Natural Disaster to follow the low chunk but I like this option as it lets me stay fullscreen and recover the two chunks I lost (unless it’s a teleport character).
I didn’t mention this earlier, but thanks for this OS! I can’t watch the video at the moment since I’m at work but does this OS also cover backdash > uppercut/divekick?
I just want to leave some notes here for myself, but if this helps other people then I’d be pretty happy. Shoutouts to @FinchoMatic for the Back Throw part of this list.
Cross Up Natural Disaster:
- Back Throw
Whiff Stand Medium Kick > Light Natural Disaster
Whiff Stand Medium Kick > Light Natural Disaster
- Forward Throw
Whiff Crouch Hard Kick > Up-towards Medium Natural Disaster
Whiff Light Pulverizer > Medium Natural Disaster
Whiff Light Pulverizer > Medium Natural Disaster
Couldn’t those end up being character-specific?
For now I’ve just been testing it on the standard body sized characters (Jago, Shago). I wanted to write down really quick some general notes and see what I can extrapolate on from there. I tested some different setups against Tusk but I forgot to write them down. Characters like Arbiter or Aganos might be more difficult to time this on (if it’s even at all possible), I have some ideas for Glacius but once again I just need to lab it up more.
Allright, just a very situationally useful thing, but maybe someone haven’t seen it. This is typical mid-combo shadow payload assault into wall break “ender” upgraded to 2 walls and position switch with instinct. You need 1 chunk to do that.
Since I’m dumb and don’t know how to link it without embedding, I’m gonna say that you need 2:00 mark.
Found this one out too shortly afterwards. It’s a really nifty combo that’s actually pretty flexible.
Flexible because there is probably a better version out there that involves using Light Payload Assault after the first cl. MP. Doing this seems to increase the overall damage of the end result by 20%!
Here’s my version that also shows it using HK Manual:
Very flexible. Can be used with 1-2 chunks (Version 2 shown above requiring at least 2), and can be switched around with various manuals and Ruin versions.
Hard to be combo-broken. The combo comes with at least two manuals the opponent has to guess on very quickly. Failure to break the first part only leaves them with the Ruin to break, and any version of the move can used depending on the chunks you have and your finesse with the setup.
Very resource hungry. Not only does it require at least 1 chunk and the opening hit, but it requires full Instinct meter, 1 Shadow meter, and proper timing on multiple occasions. Add to that the fact that it can be broken up, and you’re putting a lot at stake.
Mistiming the finishing Ruin can obviously be very disadvantagous. Not only did you waste your resources and only end up with minimal damage (~16%), but it leaves you open to counterattack. Connecting with Ruin too early can also end with a weird result, merely having the opponent just bounce off the wall for 20%. This however can be remedied, because by the time both of you recover from that phase, you already have your next Peacemaker back up, thanks to still-active Instinct, and they’re up against the wall. One right mixup/guess leading to that untechable command grab will have them sent slamming through those 2 walls for the same collective damage as originally intended, maybe even more (~20% + ~47% off raw 2-wall command grab = > 60%).
So in my efforts to try to find any sort of advantage in the Fulgore matchup, I’ve come across some interesting stuff. I don’t know if this stuff works against other characters with DPs (Jago, Orchid) but I have found this stuff works on ARIA so that’s a plus.
I’ll try to have some videos uploaded but there’s a couple of setups that Aganos can do to beat wakeup DP from Fulgore off of both Forward and Back Throw. Oddly enough, it’s almost the same exact setup.
All of these require at least one chunk.
Whiff Stand Medium Kick > Light Payload Assault > Empty Forward Jump
This setup gives you enough time to hit confirm off of the Light Payload Assault or see if his uppercut whiffs.
Whiff Stand Medium Kick > Light Payload Assault > Stand Medium Punch xx Pulverizer
The Light Payload Assault and Stand Medium Punch hit at just about the same time, stuffing Fulgore’s Shadow uppercut. What’s great about the back throw setup is that with the use of some tech from @FinchoMatic, you can whiff a stand Medium Kick and then go into a Light Natural Disaster as a crossup once they’ve come to respect your options.
These setups rely on hitting with the Light Payload Assault as a meaty, and given how advantage it is, it gives you plenty of enough time to start your offense.
Hopefully these help all of the Agabros out there.
Ok here’s some more stuff I’ve been putting to work in the lab. Here’s a way to convert a Payload Assault ender into further pressure. I only demonstrate what a Level 1 and Level 2 ender does but this also works no matter how many chunks you have. Shadow Uppercut will either whiff or trade with the light chunk depending on your timing so you have to get it down to where it trades so that way you can get the jump in and be right in his face.
Nice work here!
Thanks man! What’s good about these setups is is that it allows Aganos to get into people’s faces safely so that way he can either land a throw, an overhead, or guess to shadow counter. It allows Aganos a very simple mixup midscreen until he can carry someone to the corner and trap them there behind a wall. These setups become even more effective if you can have a wall behind them and whiff punish there uppercuts into a Ruin.
I haven’t had the chance to actually test these setups in matches but if anyone is willing to try them out, then by all means report back in this thread and let us know the results!
I got sick and tired of getting stomped on by Fulgore so I wanted to see if there was anything the big man could do against him. I haven’t had the chance to test this against other characters with wakeup DPs but it should work in theory seeing as how Fulgore’s DPs are 2 framers and his shadow being a 0 framer. I know Riptor can Shadow Clever Girl the forward throw setup but other than that, I think Aganos can use this on just about everyone. Also it feels good bringing some life to the Aganos tech thread, he has some great potential and I hope other people start exploring him more and finding out other uses for him besides just armoring through the opponent.
I’m working on one more setup to see if he can get safe pressure on an opponent off of Pulverizer end. With that it should cover all of his bases (besides sweep) that leave the opponent knocked down close to him which I believe he really needs, especially if the opponent has meter.
Ok, here’s another way to apply safe pressure with chunks. This time off of a Pulverizer ender. The video demonstrates it working with one and two chunks but it should work with 3 and 4.
This should now cover all of the knockdowns Aganos has (besides sweep, which I think should be used to chunk up to be able to continue pressure) giving him a great amount of leeway in regards to playstyle. This should make him adaptable enough to cover some of his harder matches (granted that you can land one of these.)
I’m gonna tag some Aganos players so that way they can see this stuff
This may be a “common sense idea” but I just wanted to remind everyone to not destroy their wall(s) unnecessarily with the chunk or ruin enders if you can take your opponent’s 1st lifebar with another ender instead and keep your wall(s) as a major resource during their 2nd lifebar. That way you can use it to instantly smash 30+% (or more) of their red health into nothing, use it for cornering pressure and wall bounces, to get a peacemaker or even a chunk after, etc.
Further testing on these setups against the opponents wakeup show that they do not beat:
- Thunder’s shadow reversal
- Cinder’s light and shadow reversal
- Tusk’s shadow reversal
The setups do beat everyone else’s regular and shadow wakeup reversal (except for Orchid who I have not had the chance to try this out on).
More research needs to be done, but I don’t know if there’s really much else the golem can do to beat their wakeup.
Pulverize Ender safe-jump: Whiff a Cr LK, straight into a jump MK. Works for 1-2 chunks. Pretty easy timing.
Back throw safe-jump: Whiff a St. LK, straight into a jump MK. Works for 1-2 chunks. Timing is a bit harder.
Sabrewulf’s backdash out of it can be caught by a light Pulverize.