Any jump hit, or even a standing jab will beat this, provided you don’t get caught flat footed in a move that leaves you at point blank range with recovery. If you are not right next to Shago when he hits instinct, nearly every move will hit him out of this. I have been jabbed out of it.
So, you can punish moves that leave characters in recovery at range, or if you get them landing from a jump at just the right moment etc. But it’s not “free” : it costs you your instinct meter and it is slow and therefore risky. But again, there are better punishes in KI.
You can also poke it out. I got stuffed with a Light kick out of it, @M00NLightNinja has the video. I’ve also been stuffed from many other options. It’s totally easy to react to and easy to jump over. Just don’t do like… Full Screen Windkick, because then, I will hit Annihilation.
I actually don’t think you’ll ever see Annihilation completely disappear, not even in high level play. 48% damage might not be excessive given what some characters can do with instinct, but 48% unbreakable damage as a legit punish is nothing to sneeze at. In certain MU’s I think you’ll see it used quite a bit actually. Hisako is a pretty good example of a fight where Shago is nearly guaranteed to be able to hit it if he’s patient. She’s naturally unsafe on everything anyway, and her usual recourse for it (counter) is useless at avoiding annihilation. [Fun fact though - possession’s unique unblockable shatter-like properties let her just eat the move ] But yeah, in MU’s where characters are particularly unsafe anyway, I think you’ll continue to see annihilation used. 48% isn’t phenomenal damage in KI, but for a fairly low damaging character like Shago it certainly has its uses.
That said, I’d tend to err on the side of it being pretty well balanced. It’s pretty much only ever going to hit on legit punish windows; it’s very avoidable in neutral after you’ve learned to be on the lookout for it. A combo->instinct cancel->annihilation reset (shoutouts to @TheNinjaOstrich) is something I’d wager can get anybody once, but after that first time it is pretty hard to replicate. 48% guaranteed damage seems about right to me for the difficulty of landing it and the options that Shago is giving up.
With that though, Even If i were to say get a lockout, then Instinct Cancel into Annihilation, You STILL have enough time to jump away from it. The only reason I got you a couple of times, was I was reading you, and catching your pushed button. Even more with Hisako, since Annihilation is Grab Invincible. It’s more of an all or nothing punish attempt. Even If I hit instinct, I can always just do a divekick, and hit you in the air. Then comes the 50-50 mixup that Shago has. In a High Profile Tourney match, It’s not gonna happen unless someone does a really bad move.
Which was all kind of my point. You only hit me with annihilation in a true neutral situation (the reset one I mentioned) once, even though you tried it a few times. All the others were legit punishes on throw attempts or trip guards. I kind of discount the ones where you “annihilationed” a button press - that is very much a Hisako-specific situation, where annihilation wins mostly just because her buttons in general have such high start-up. Against most characters not named Aganos, annihilation would lose to a button being out like that.
And punish opportunities happen even at high level. Assuming we see Shago in tourney, you’re almost certainly going to be seeing annihilation used for such. In neutral it is an objectively bad move - as a punish however, it has and will continue to have its uses.
Shadow Jago has a 40-50% 1 chance guess break juggle and a 90% with instinct from the same juggle which is still guess break. Spending his instinct on the 48% is alright but, it’s only very good point blank as a punish but, how much damage can other characters get out of their instinct and still keep it active? Think of Orchid’s pressure with instinct, Wulf’s damage, Jago’s frame advantage, TJ’s speed, resets, there is a lot Shadow Jago’s instinct can do. I would rather use what it can do than burn it for 48% when I can do that with 3 button presses.
Which is entirely true - but since the amount of damage being caused to you is being compared with that which can occur through the typical combo mechanics, I think it’s relevant to look at all the differences/similarities.
If you’re opening me up for a combo, I could avoid it by not getting hit or blocking it - with Annhilation, the same applies - don’t get hit.
But, once I’ve been hit and I’m in a combo, the mind games begin and I have opportunities to break and reduce the amount of damage I’m taking, while the opponent needs to manage their KV and Shadow meters. You don’t have that opportunity whatsoever - one touch is guaranteed damage relative to how much Instinct meter he had left, there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it.
When you’re comparing Omen’s move and SJ’s Annihilation, you have a full life bar of potential damage versus up to 48% guaranteed, unbreakable damage for landing the attack, but again, Omen’s move can be defended against outside of avoiding being hit in the first place, and doesn’t have the benefit of a guaranteed Instinct Cancel into freeze when activating it like SJ’s does.
Are these similarities and differences really not worth discussing, and simply boiled down to simply “don’t get hit?”
It really is “just don’t get hit”, IMO, however people might say different. Annihilation may be a guaranteed 48%, but that is if you use it IMMEDIATELY after activation of instinct, and gets weaker REALLY Fast. It can be punished as well. I can’t recall how many times I’ve just held jump as soon as I see the Instinct Cancel --> Freeze, and done a full combo after. Usually, If the person knows what they are doing, they will be able to catch your buttons. With the case of Spinal, for the most part, he needs to be all up in your face, and is reliant on grabs and Dash cancels. So If I were to see that, I’d try and hit you with it in order for you to play differently. Even with say… Combo Lockout into Instinct Cancel into Annihilation, You still have enough time to evade it, even with a lockout.
You’d just have to watch Shadow Jago and his Instinct, because that is where he shines the most. Shago in Instinct is one of the scariest fights I’ve ever experienced.
The move is technically a command grab so it’s unblockable. Anyway the move does seem op but you can poke or jump to escape. I find myself getting hit with it because of a set up or punish.
Until someone shows how Shago can use his instinct to get more than 48% free damage I’m going to keep using it for a punish. Seriously, it’s gotten to the point where I have a 100% success rate landing this thing. Maybe once people learn that certain moves are off limits when Shago has instinct it’ll stop being so easy to land.
I actually agree with all of that - on balance I think Shago’s instinct can be much more terrifying than a simple instinct cancel->annihilation punish. That doesn’t mean that it won’t be used for precisely that, however, even in tournament.
As Infil is wont to point out, TJ’s instinct is, even now, woefully underused relative to what he can get off it, even at high level. TJ in instinct is downright terrifying - but yet we routinely see players not activate it on their first lifebar, and then hold onto it for the entirety of their second lifebar, just to get a tiny sliver or life and a portion of instinct after they’ve already lost the match. Players have preferences, and those preferences do not always make sense. In Shago’s case, what you get for using his instinct for annihilation punishes is actually pretty darn good. Unbreakable damage in this game is not to be sneezed at, and Shago probably has one of the better tools in the game for ending a lifebar with it.
[quote=“SithLordEDP, post:33, topic:3188”]
Maybe once people learn that certain moves are off limits when Shago has instinct it’ll stop being so easy to land.
[/quote]I think this wil happen soon.
[quote=“TheNinjaOstrich, post:30, topic:3188”]
say… Combo Lockout into Instinct Cancel into Annihilation, You still have enough time to evade it, even with a lockout.
[/quote]Yes, that definitely is reactable. Annihilation doesn’t combo off of anything.
Absolutely these are worth discussing. I just think people are responding to the OP, which is “nerf annihilation!!!” The point is not that the move is useless or no good. It’s that some of us don’t feel like it’s really out of scale compared to the plethora of dirty, scummy stuff that KI characters get during instinct.
Hit boxes on. Attack Data on. Learn the start up. How far it goes.
Can I be hit out of it if my opponent attacks?
Do I get hit from projectiles when I use this move?
Does this move combo from other moves?
Does this move hit someone on hit stun/block stun?
Can this move hit someone that attempts to grab?
All of these scenarios can be easily done in training mode and the fact that this move is getting claimed as “OP” only a weekend after release is subject to criticism, like how I was asking earlier.
The OP is suggesting for IG to take out the move or find a solution, when he could have founded it himself. Anyone can take the time out to find what Annihilation actually punishes if people went into the lab and tested it on every single move that was negative on block, especially now that we have a reversal notification, instinct cancels count as reversals and which means that the next frame you want to attempt to use the move to see if you can punish.
Move is weak to any meaty set up. Projectiles, can’t be used in a combo, can’t be used on someone on hit stun or block stun. The only thing this move will work on is if the person is blocking in neutral, potentially trip guard, whiff punishment on a super recoverable move (like Aganos standing fierce punch), or grabs.
It’s more than just the damage, though… it’s the cost as well. Lots of characters can do 40% unbreakable damage off a safe hit confirm in this game, but it usually costs them half their instinct and two bars. Shago can do 48% unbreakable with only a pseudo-hit confirm, and it costs him his whole instinct (so he can’t try to build meter if he’s low). Good in some situations, bad in others.
Also, you have to ask yourself what the definition of a “mistake” is. If you get hit against Glacius (one mistake) and then lock out early (another mistake), you’re looking at a minimum of 65% life if Glacius spends all his meter. Is two mistakes (one in neutral, one in the combo) worth 65%?
In Shago’s case, the mistake you have to make is doing something that is -5 or -6 on block, whiffing something bad, or trying to throw him if he flinch-activates instinct (he gets only one shot at it). These are pretty avoidable mistakes and losing 48% for it seems pretty reasonable considering if Sadira or Wulf do any of these exact same things, you’re looking at way worse damage on average + meter build + having instinct left over in some cases.
Yeah. Shago with Tons of Surge and Tether Setups will be scary in the right hands.
I noticed this, and not a lot of TJ’s use their Instinct on the first lifebar. It depends on the situation, but you know from fighting my TJ Storm, that TJ is scary considering his moveset when you add speed and frames to it.
People just might be scared, because you could wiff a grab or something, and 48% is now gone. It’s an all or nothing response to a wiff, and if it doesn’t work, Shadow Jago has no instinct at all.
I think any normal. I got stuffed by a Jumping light kick using it one time. It depends though on the situation.
Yeah, I mean… I wish people would think about it. Last breath TJ actually isn’t very good. You don’t get to choose when it activates, you only get 7.5 seconds of instinct time, and you often have to deal with a mixup or spend the first 3 seconds of your instinct chasing somebody who is now full screen away. All for what? Literally one extra hit that you will probably give up while trying to chase?
In almost every single situation, I would rather spend the instinct manually. I get the full 15 seconds to do work, I can pop it at a time of my choosing (on my wakeup, to make a tremor safe, etc) and I will almost always pop it directly in their face so I can immediately go to work at frame advantage. I don’t think there’s much of a case to use last breath almost at all, to be perfectly honest… unless you value that one extra hit above all these other things, which miiiight be true in super close “both in danger” matches but even then I’m not entirely sure it’s true. If we’re both in danger, maybe I don’t value the extra hit myself and instead value being able to try tremor OS ultra twice!
I mean, how many times have we seen TJ save instinct, use it on last breath, and then just immediately lose? People will say “oh well, you gave it a good try” and be accepting of this loss. But if you pop instinct and then lose, people will say “I can’t BELIEVE you didn’t save for last breath!!!” even though it gave them a much better chance to win. It literally makes no sense to me at all. I guess it’s yet another piece of evidence for the symptom of “short term thinking” that so many KI players have. All that matters is that you got combo broken 2 seconds ago. It doesn’t matter whether or not you made the correct long term decision.
People would be really, really scared of TJ if they used his instinct better.
This is sad too, that people feel the need not to use his instinct until Last Breath, and lose. There has been many times that using instinct close to danger has saved me. I just don’t feel justified using it because of those statements.
Is it wrong of me as a TJ player Infil, to use instinct near danger or close to it, for faster moves and frame traps, rather than hold on to it till the very end? I see a lot of TJ’s not touch the instinct at all. So I wanted another opinion to see if I’m not the only one missing out on something.
] But yeah, in MU’s where characters are particularly unsafe anyway, I think you’ll continue to see annihilation used. 48% isn’t phenomenal damage in KI, but for a fairly low damaging character like Shago it certainly has its uses.
