This Set-Up isn’t super easy because of the spacing and timing but hey, it’s a double wall combo that’s legit and somewhat safe. Just use the Wall creation to see whether the low-rock connects or not so you wont go and commit to the S.ND even when they block the rock.
Keits warned us.
There are some similar tactics up that actually set up 2 walls durring the shadow payload assult and end with a wall crash. So that means that your tech in tandum with that tech could actually lead to a 3 wall combo! I have to try this out right now!
Okay, 1st of all, that was so nice I had to watch it twice! 2nd, I’ve tested this in the lab and although it’s awesome (the damage comes in at ~61%), it’s not worth the effort (for me it took me 20+ tries before I finally nailed it). It requires 3 chunks, 2 shadow bars, full instinct, AND you have to be near the edge of the screen (since pushing your opponent to the opposite edge doesn’t allow for a crossup to ruin them into the walls), so it’s simply not feasible during an actual match. Add to that the fact that even if you did pull it off (removing the whole margin for error business), you’d have to ask yourself if saving up the resources was really worth it in the 1st place. To reiterate - you have to be half dead to get your instinct, not use your shadow for anything, get and maintain 3 chunks without getting hit (which I feel obligated to remind you - it makes you slower), AND get into the proper position so you have enough space to pull off this setup!
It IS legit, but there are far easier ways to get 61% damage with Aganos. Also, although I’m sure you’re already aware of it, you don’t need to fire the initial chunk at all - you could just as easily set up the wall behind you by other means (a throw, for example) and get a hit with the shadow natural disaster after the fact (probably with an opponent who’s jumping in - that’s where I find it works best.
Finally, that being said, I do like the methods you used to get walls behind you - some of that is tech I never really thought of myself (such as using instinct to get them to pause higher up off-screen), so in that regard, props…
That initial chunk I tossed in the beginning is what turns this combo from a 61% into a 72% combo. My main guideline into this set-up was “How can I perform Walls after an Opener and before I end it?”.
This is the 3 wall combo: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=754EEEBD2CD23C85!22657&authkey=!AEXu9Z34w_HeBP4&ithint=video%2Cmp4
Bonus Ultra into double wall combo: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=754EEEBD2CD23C85!22658&authkey=!AGKY45O1_uCKpXs&ithint=video%2Cmp4
Doing these combos actually makes a lot of the game’s VFX disappear during the match.
I like the 3-wall combo better than the 2-wall version.
WARNING: The following is an incredibly long post to read; only the strongest will survive. Are you strong enough to understand the mountain man?
ONCE UPON A TIME…
Here’s a much easier setup that does comparable damage, with fewer resources, AND with less risk involved:
Resource Requirements - at least 1 wall behind opponent; 2 full bars of shadow meter; ability to manual.
Combo - jumping heavy kick (into wall bounce); medium or heavy natural disaster; heavy punch manual; light-punch pulverize; heavy kick auto-double; shadow pulverize; shadow natural disaster; ruin into wall crash = 78% total damage.
Notes: It’s breakable on the manual, the linker, the auto-double, and the 2 shadow moves, so, it’s not without risk, but they are (for the most part) rather hard to break AND you can also use all 5 to quickly and easily fish for and bait lockouts using a counter-breaker (and you may not need to do so if the initial manual locks them out 1st, which BTW, is an ideal scenario) so you can then finish your combo (although you would lose some damage potential if you perform the counter-breaker during 1 of the shadow moves). Furthermore, going into 2 separate shadow moves, 1 after the other, with 2 entirely different speeds (slow, then fast) can also lead to the opponent getting easily locked out. You can even switch the 2 shadow moves as a minor mix-up to mess with your opponent’s timing to lock them out if you try the same setup a 2nd time (and if you do, it’ll still do the minimum 78% damage). If you can manage to set up 2 walls behind your opponent before performing this combo, the damage jumps to a whopping 93% (and immediately puts them into a danger state)! I don’t think I even have to tell you how much damage 3 walls would do (hint: it = ). This is officially my new favorite setup from the man who hits you like a mountain.
…and now, finally, for your own viewing pleasure! I give you:
ADDENDUM: After attempting this setup in an online match, I was shocked to find that my opponent could break the 1st natural disaster in the combo (which means there are actually 6 opportunities to break this combo!). Going back to the lab, I’m surprised that I had missed it (especially since it shows it with the combo info in the video above itself). My mistake was that I assumed that a jumping normal was just an “attack” with the following natural disaster as the opener, which couldn’t be broken. However, since it had been broken, I found out that the jump heavy kick was the actual opener and the following natural disaster was actually just a “special attack” (whatever that means). Even weirder is the fact that, as you can see in the clip, if you do the heavy version of the natural disaster, it changes from a heavy special attack to a medium special attack half-way through the animation. Why is that? Is it a glitch or done on purpose? If it’s the latter, then why? In any case, this means that the heavy version is breakable on both heavy AND medium combo-breakers with the appropriate timing from the opponent - so if you do this combo setup, it might be wiser to do the medium natural disaster, since it can only be broken with medium combo breakers and still does the same amount of damage as the heavy (unlike the light natural disaster, which although still an option, would reduce the overall damage of the combo). Of course, since the heavy natural disaster changes strength half way through the move, this might even make it harder to break (for example, the opponent breaks it as a medium during the heavy portion of the natural disaster or vice-versa). What do you guys think? Is it easier to break or easier to get a lockout with the initial heavy natural disaster in this setup?
Is this true for every jumping attack when starting a combo though? Are they all considered openers? If so, this is something that I genuinely didn’t know about (speaking of which, it still amazes me that I’m still learning about this game’s meta after nearly 2 years of playing). Why is it that they’re considered openers but other normal attacks aren’t when starting combos? @Infilament and @TheKeits, I’d like you guys, in particular, to answer these questions for me (since you guys seem to be the experts in everything game mechanic-related).
That being said, when experimenting with this combo setup, I initially started with a standing heavy kick, rather than the jumping heavy kick, which does NOT count as an opener, so if you do that, they won’t be able to break your natural disaster that follows (regardless of what strength you use, because that IS considered the opener in that case. There is a tradeoff, however, but thankfully, it’s a minor 1 - you lose out on 2% damage across the board, so the 78% damage becomes 76% and the 93% becomes 91%. That’s still a great amount of damage though and with the case of the 2 walls, STILL puts your opponent into the danger zone, so in hindsight, using the standing heavy kick over the jumping heavy kick is probably the better combo of the 2 - it’s easier to pull off, it’s faster, it hits twice, AND it has 1 less breakable opportunity for your opponent to counter you.
Ah well… And to think I was literally awake ALL NIGHT trying to perfect this combo, understand its ins and outs, and upload the clip (just look at how many times I’ve edited this single post for how much of a perfectionist I really am), and I still missed something…
ADDENDUM 2: I just found an EVEN BETTER solution - instead of allowing the standing heavy kick to hit twice, stand far enough away so it only hits once; this reduces the scaling of damage and the combo actually does 79% damage (or 94% with the double walls!) AND it STILL offers all of the other benefits of the standing heavy kick combo that hits 1 more time AND offers even more damage than my initial combo setup in the video above! Hallelujah!
This game is AWESOME!!! I feel like I just finished solving a great mystery. Kudos to you, Iron Galaxy.
ADDENDUM 3: OMFGIFBI!!! I found the BEST solution that’s EVEN BETTER than the solution I gave in addendum 2!!! I must be in heaven right now!
I noticed that with the setup under addendum 2, that there was still just the tiniest of spaces at the end of the KV meter, so I decided to see if I could squeeze in 1 more heavy manual right after the shadow natural disaster and right before the ruin ender into wall crash - and you know what? It worked! It gives you a whopping 81% damage with 1 more (albeit minor) chance to break when 1 wall is up or an absolute whopping 96% damage with 2 walls! And it STILL only takes 1 wall and 2 bars of shadow meter!!!
I think I just found the most damaging, non-counter-breaker combo in the game and have broken the game - I’m sorry, Iron Galaxy…
Am I wrong? Is there a better combo in terms of damage with any other character while using 2 bars of shadow meter (I would think, maybe with Thunder perhaps)?
Side Note: As excited as I am for this experience, experimentation, and having figured things out, I’m a bit disappointed that nobody has replied to this awesomely, but admittedly long, post yet. I understand it’s the weekend guys, but come on! The anticipation of your responses is killing me!
Summary of Post’s Questions (Revisited):
Why is the heavy version of the initial natural disaster, when using the jump heavy kick as the opener, show as both medium and heavy-breakable?
Is the above scenario in the above paragraph a glitch or on purpose? if the latter, then why?
Do you guys think the medium-heavy breakability of the above-mentioned “heavy” natural disaster actually makes it easier to break or easier to bait lockouts? Why?
Is every jumping attack considered an opener?
Why aren’t other normals considered openers when the jumping attacks are?
Is there a better combo for damage using 2 bars of shadow meter and no counter-breakers than the 1 setup mentioned in addendum 3 with any character other than Aganos? If so, with who and with what combo setup?
The End is Nigh:
Whoo! If you made it this far, then I applaud your efforts and determination! It matches my own.
All right, time for honesty.
You’ve put in far too much effort (and text) for a combo that’s not special in any way. You did 2 Shadow Linkers into a damage ender… of course you’re going to get 70% damage, especially if you only do heavy autodoubles and manuals. It’s not exactly game-breaking. Many characters get similar damage for the same amount of resources spent. It’s not hard to break in the slightest, and putting a Shadow Linker right after another won’t “mix-up” anybody (because that’s not what a mix-up is), and it won’t throw off the timing of anybody above Silver Rank (no offense to Silver Rank players). Placing an extra manual here or there doesn’t add any complexity nor does it make a combo that is already pretty standard any more game-breaking. Given how frequently you post on the forum, I’m baffled that you haven’t tried or even seen a combo like this before.
You also seemed to have missed the point of the original post. The point isn’t really to maximize damage, or to get unbreakable damage, or even to make it useful. It’s the fact that Aganos can place 2-3 walls DURING A COMBO and cash them out at the end of the same combo. It’s not much more than a stylish combo video, which I accentuated by doing a double wall crash after an Ultra Combo.
-Yes, jumping attacks are openers. I suggest you try Dojo Mode. The only difference is that Aganos’ jump HK leads to a wall splat, not a traditional combo. Anything after the wall splat is breakable as it is normally.
-When you do a Natural Disaster after a wall splat, it acts as a manual. Don’t think too hard about that; you might get a headache. The switch from heavy to medium is probably a bug, but it doesn’t matter since they’re mostly indistinguishable and the opponent can only attempt to break one hit or get locked out.
I spent an entire night and half a day working on this (and I’m still not done - I’m still trying to finish editing and uploading a clip, but can’t due to an Xbox Live Core Services Alert) and you come here and trash everything I worked so hard on!? Regardless of whether you’re right or not, that was a horrible thing to do. You’re a terrible person!
Didn’t your mother ever teach you to not say anything if you couldn’t say anything nice or constructive!?
As for the jump attacks being openers, I already kind of knew that - a long time ago…
I used to think ANY normal attack was an opener and if the following attack was a special move, that it was simply considered a linker. Then, @Infilament informed me that those were “just normal attacks” and that the subsequent special move was usually the opener. From this I assumed that it also included jumping normals as well - that was my mistake. I also don’t generally play with the combo state data on very often, so it’s not something that I see or generally study on a regular basis.
As for not doing that combo, a long time ago - I couldn’t. I’ve only been able to effectively manual for about the past few months, and generally only with Aganos (I still have difficulty with other characters). As an example, even though I’ve made it to the top 95 spot on the leaderboards, I still haven’t been able to beat dojo lesson 32 (although I’ve completed the rest). Speaking of which, it’s been a long time since I’ve gone through the dojo or read Infil’s Guide in full (and the former misses on a lot of things anyways), so of course, I’m not going to get everything right or remember it correctly.
When it comes to this setup “only being good against silvers” - I play against a lot of non-killer ranked players (bronze, silver, and gold alike). The killers that I generally do face that are good enough to counter this combo are the kind of players that have their hand-eye coordination down to a T and almost never drop a combo or make mistakes on their part (which actually includes a goodly number of people on this very forum, yourself included) - but that’s something I’ve NEVER been able to do. I still get frustrated or distracted and often drop combos as a result, or I concentrate so hard that I miss the timing or do things too quickly in a state of panic. I don’t always keep my cool like I would like to to do the things I want like I can against a non-moving AI character in training.
…and I know that it’s a manual with natural disaster after wall-splat - that’s something I’ve known for a long time.
In my experience, for most characters, using 2 bars of shadow usually nets around 60% damage not 70%+…
…and I didn’t miss the point of the thread - I’m merely trying to “evolve” the discussion for the sake of conversation and learning; last time I checked, there are no rules about that. And believe me, as long as my post was, I was considering putting it into its own thread, but that’s kind of hard to do from the console, which is what I was using, where I can’t copy or paste.
All in all, like I said in my last post, I’m still learning - you should respect that instead of stepping all over me… :’(
You’re usually very constructive, and do so without being mean at that, but that’s certainly not today. You took my enthusiasm for this game and just absolutely crushed it. How dare you put me on the defensive! THAT IS NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE OF AN UPSTANDING MEMBER OF THIS COMMUNITY. Making someone feel “lesser than” - you should be ashamed! Next time, just stick to answering the questions, and avoid commentary like “not special in any way” (and for the record, it is special - the damage proves it; you just don’t like it because of all the potnetial chance breaks - which is a subset of that whole elitist/competitive no-break or once-break brief combos for crap damage - most players don’t even play like that!) or “don’t think too hard about that” or “I suggest you try dojo mode” and etc. It’s insulting! You can be honest without being a douchebag…
I will be expecting an apology from you, and soon…
I like your combo galactic and I think it would work well if there’s an early lockout achieved.
I notice you mention that standing HK is the better option over jumping HK due to the one less break opportunity. I’d like to suggest that jumping HK is still the better option for a few reasons.
Most players won’t try to break the ND opener/linker after the wall bounce as there is no reliable way to tell what strength is being used.
If you have chunks, odds are that your opponent will not press buttons and allow an easy standing HK to hit them.
Standing HK can be punished on block as it recovers long. Example, jago using shadow fireball to remove all chunks.
There are a few tricky set-ups that are hard to read to hit your opponent with jumping HK.
Try this, empty jump forward to a downed opponent in front of your wall. The opponent recognizes that it is an empty jump, and tries to grab. Instead you go empty jump into neutral jump HK and into your combo.
There’s good combos in killer instinct, but only the best are ones that are hard to read/aren’t easy to see coming.
The idea is to bait the reaction you want. Not to just “hope” your opponent makes a silly decision while you are at advantage.
That was a “smooth” response, Duck - thanks.
Regarding point #1, tell that to the guy I fought earlier today who broke it on my very 1st attempt at the setup.
Seriously though; all are absolutely very good points, especially the last part about baiting the reaction you want - I’m more of a reactionary player (another reason why I like Aganos so much - he practically has to react to everything), so that’s something I don’t think about too often. It’s interesting too, because it’s the players that know what they want to do and dedicate themselves to that particular direction that I’ve seen be most successful in fighting games. They know the combos, they know how they work, and how they can be countered, and they commit to it without letting anything bother them. As much as I would like to, I don’t play like that - at least not yet.
To counter your point about the jump-in being better than the standing attack though, the last combo setup I mentioned was still the most beefy when it comes to damage… So the question really becomes, do you want fast and powerful or slow and certain? Are you the tortoise or the hare?
The reason why, I find, that you see shorter combos at high level play, is because certain damage is more valuable than high damage. Tricky set-ups into more tricky set-ups is more likely to earn you wins over doing unsafe moves in hopes of getting the most damage.
If you want to improve you should aspire to learn good habits against players that are one step ahead of you.
Doing big damage against an opponent who fell for your unsafe moves won’t improve your game, it will keep you happy at the level you will continue to play at. And I mean “you” in general.
A suggestion for improvement I have would be to start thinking about optimized damage as opposed to big damage. Example, your combo includes both shadow pulverize as well as s.ND. I’m not sure which does more damage but the optimized combo would pick one over the other for damage, I think ND does the most. You don’t see glacuis doing shadow cold shoulder then shadow hail during lockouts right? Same idea.
Here’s the thing - I spent all day trying variations off of this combo - you’d think doing 2 of the damage shadow linkers would work (it’s pulverize, BTW), but in this case (for whatever reason), it actually does less damage overall - and believe me, I’ve tried a combination of all of the shadow moves - shadow pulverize, when paired with shadow natural disaster. does the most damage out of any combination there is. Besides, it has the added benefit of changing the pacing/rhythm of the attacks mid-combo, which I still believe can mess people up (unlike what Leo seems to believe). Feel free to try it yourself!
EDIT: I finally finished uploading the 2nd clip, which you can now find above, under addendum 3. Enjoy!
Hate to break it to ya, Geekster, but shadow ND linker does more damage than shadow pulverize linker (simply turn on Attack Data and look at the numbers). So I did your 1-wall combo above and simply did 2 shadow ND linkers instead of 1 pulverize and 1 ND, and I got 82% damage instead of 81%.
If we’re talking practicality for a second here, shadow ND is the better linker for a variety of reasons, not only damage… it does fantastic corner push and also executes faster, so it’s easier to sneak in near the end of lockouts. In fact I can’t really think of a reason you’d ever want to use shadow pulverize as a linker, except if you were trying to not push someone towards a wall so you could do chunk ender without destroying a wall.
If you do them naked though, shadow natural disaster does 10% compared to shadow pulverize’s 12% - that’s what I was basing my info on, not the data that I never could understand or read in the 1st place (we’ve had that discussion in the past already though, so I’ll leave it there). After performing the combo, as per your suggestion, it would seem that you are right, though - at least partially. With 1 wall, using 2 shadow natural disasters does yield 1 more % of damage (so, 82% instead of 81%), but if there’s 2 walls, the damage is actually scaled down by 2% (94% instead of 96%).
Still, I find it odd that shadow natural disaster seems to get all the benefits mid-combo - it’s faster, has push-back, is harder to break, AND does more damage? There really is almost no point to shadow pulverize… Then again, it does prevent throws and is a decent anti-air, so at least there’s that. Also, don’t forget, mixing up the 2 shadow moves (rather than having 2 of the same) does make it harder to break overall (since they can’t get a “rythm” because it changes on them.
Shadow pulverize has its uses in neutral, yes, which is why I was careful to specify the linker version in my post. If you’re struggling to read Attack Data, all you need to look at is the first number in the “Combo Damage” line. You can ignore all the others.
Shadow ND and shadow pulverize are both trivial to break (in fact, all shadow linkers are pretty trivial to break at an intermediate level and higher)… one is not really any easier or harder than the other. Mixing up the two linkers doesn’t really help confuse people that much, because you don’t need to break both of them back-to-back, you just pick one and break it, and the super freeze gives you lots of time to see what move is coming.
Not trying to be mean here, just making sure you understand the context of the combo you posted.
I’m just hype I get to see people flying through walls at high speed. Maybe that’s why I like Injustice so much…
Just seeing someone get bodied like that brings a tear of joy to my eyes…
Watching a Giant smash the stuffing out of you right through several Walls of Stone is what I live for.