I know it’s a little off topic, but I thought this was an interesting (and true in my experience) statement. The trick to this has less to do with what they are specifically committed to and more to do with the fact that they don’t have to waste time thinking about what they are going to do next. This is one of the reasons why good or even great players are still better with some characters than others, even if they know all the combos etc. It’s that tenth of a second where your brain has to tell your hands. If the other guy just goes automatically he’s going to get you. The big thing that separates those great players from the consistently top 8 pros is that the best guys are the ones who can do everything on autopilot but also adjust to what’s happening in front of them. That is not easy to do.
Just to dork out a bit on this, they have done a lot of work on studying the minds of chess players. Chess is a poster child for games that are simple to learn, difficult to master and also have you playing against an opponent. They have discovered that new players just look at what is on the board and think about their next move. Good players are doing lots of calculation when they play, considering all the possible moves and all the possible subsequent moves of their opponent. And there’s a spectrum here where if you think 5 moves in advance you are ok, but if you think 10 moves in advance you are really good etc. But here’s the punchline. When they hook up master level players, they aren’t doing any calculations at all. None. That part of their brain is essentially turned off. Instead, the only part of their brain they are using is memory. Essentially, they have seen every move there is to see in chess and all they have to do is remember the appropriate counter moves. They aren’t stopping to think 100 moves in advance, because that’s a waste of their time.
TL;DR In a game like KI where split second timing matters, you usually don’t have time to think about “fighting game theory” every time a decision needs to be made. So picking a generally successful strategy and practicing it to where it becomes automatic will keep you from getting brain lock.
I’m pretty sure I fall somewhere between the thinking and automatic categories (hence why I’m really, really good, but not among the greats). I find there are days where I’m distracted by other things, get easily frustrated, and am probably thinking too much. I enjoyed reading your post because I think it’s absolutely true. My best days, in contrast, are where I’m relaxed and not thinking too much about it - for lack of a better phrase, the magic just happens.
I recommend you check tournaments out more often! There’s a lot to learn about the game every time they show top players playing it. There’s even a lot of Aganos players making dents in tournaments now.
As with all fighting games, it’s hard to develop tech in a vacuum… it really helps to understand what other good players are doing with the character. It also helps with understanding a bit better exactly what setups can and can’t reasonably work on other skilled players (to judge the viability of stuff), and it always helps to learn how good players handle situations that you struggle with, so you can adapt your understanding of the game.
I’ve actually seen quite a bit from the 8-Bit Beatdown, but I find it rather boring as there’s a lot of dialogue before and between matches that bores me. I just want to see the action and in-fight commentary. Since a lot of it’s streamed, I can’t always watch it (and when I can, skip the aforementioned parts), and even though I could always watch it later from saved streams or on YouTube, I simply don’t have the patience or drive to sit through that.
…and for the record, I even tried to sign up for 8-Bit Beatdown once - I found it too complicated (and as always, I didn’t think my connection was up to snuff, since it generally takes place in a lobby).
In any case, I know it’s always better to learn with people rather than on your own. By that token, it’s also better to learn with people than from videos. The videos may be faster, but they won’t actually get you the edge you need - that comes from only 1 person, and that’s you. At least with actual people, they can be a cheerleader of sorts.
There’s no substitute for playing a lot, that’s definitely true, and I’m not suggesting you stop playing and only watch videos. But if improving is your goal (and not just playing for fun), there’s no better way than studying the game as it’s played by people better than you.
The reason I bring it up with you is because you seem interested in posting about tech you find with a character. But without knowing what the tournament scene knows about this character, it’s sometimes hard to know how useful it is, or if it’s already been discovered, or stuff like that.
Anyway, if you don’t have the interest in watching a Youtube video of a bunch of really awesome matches (where you can skip the parts in between games), then that’s up to you. I just think you’d learn a lot of interesting things!
I do want to improve, but not at the cost of fun - that’s always been true with me. Watching videos will only be “fun” for so long. 8-Bit Beatdown, while good (and I applaud those who do it), is simply too long.
Playing with the actual people is key; I believe that. However, not many of them are going to drop everything for every person who goes up to them asking them for help - it’s simply not feasible. Then again, it’s the guys who aren’t willing to share their knowledge at all that irritates me - you know, the ones that just want to beat you up 'cause it makes them feel better and to keep doing so. I much prefer the guys who are willing to take the time to share their knowledge and (nice) comments about the fights we have together because it not only a) makes me a better player, but also b) gives them more of a challenge so they themselves can get even better as well, since I would pose an even greater threat in the foreseeable future. It’s a (mostly) win-win for everyone.
I actually met 1 of the former the other day - I got my butt beat, so I asked him how he did it as well as what I was doing wrong. His response? Nada… He didn’t say a darn thing…
I know you can; I just don’t want to rely on popular stuff that everyone uses because it’s so well advertised (such as dial-a-combos in other fighting games) or accepted. I’d rather develop my own unique style and/or tech. Why do you think I like to play unpopular/underdog characters?
You don’t have to rely on things exactly how others do it. If you see someone do a unique set up or use some interesting tech it can get your brain churning on your own ideas for set ups or uses for tech. Or you can actually use the fact that people expect you to do what everyone else does to your advantage and do something completely different to throw them off.
I actually didn’t learn anything from any Riptor or Aganos player. However I learned alot from GutterMagic’s and Rico Suave’s Thunder. I learned alot from Daffy and FilthieRiche’s Glacius.
This is starting to upset me - I make 1 dedicated post about how I’m excited about figuring something out and everyone’s all up in my face as if I’m some noob who doesn’t know what he’s doing or how to learn how to play the game better. I don’t need the advice guys - everything you’ve mentioned, I pretty much already know. I’ve been playing fighting games for years. You’re preaching to the quire here… So, please - just stop.
There’s nothing to be upset about, pal. We’re just talking about KI with you. You very clearly asked for feedback on your technique and that’s what we’re doing.
Jeez, @GalacticGeek get a hold of yourself! Every time on this forum someone posts something to do with Aganos you usually add some snarky comment about how good you are, or how you’ve seen this all before. Then someone tries to help you; genuinely, or someone criticizes your comment and you’re all fired up about it! It’s like you have some god complex about how good you are at this game! You don’t even understand how the game works at a fundamental and technical level. Could you even explain footsies, or option selects to someone who doesn’t understand what those terms mean? You act like a super high-level tournament player, but you’re far from it. As oppose to lashing out at people and demanding respect, try to earn respect like the rest of us. Learn the game, understand the game, try to be humble, and always try to get better. I’m not one to rag on other players, but GOD I can’t tolerate it anymore! There’s a mind set you should try adopting, and it’s to assume that you’re bad at the game, and always try to get better; always aim to punch down a mountain, and then once you can, try punching apart the planet. Learn to admit you’re wrong. I had to take a break from the Aganos forums because I couldn’t stand your comments anymore! Totally nonsensical and demanding of respect and authority for no good reason.
Knowing you you’ll probably take this with an attitude of, “why does nobody like me” or some equally horrible interpretation. Try taking it as “What can I do to be a better person and a better player?” and then actually try in a humble fashion. Its a change in philosophy that will make you a better player and a better person.
Speaking of hurdles and personal barriers one must get over Aganos’s triple wall set-up is fantastic. I didn’t know if you instinct cancelled the opponent stays in place after being launched by Shadow Payload. I thought I had to roll behind them to neutralize their travel to the other screen.
Now that I know just instinct cancelling can allow for you to place a wall behind yourself for a three wall Combo into a four Wall set-up I actually increased by 10% on my Agga-Techs. If theirs one thing about Aganos that I know I’m good at is chunk-management. If I can become GREAT at breaking like Gutter Magic or Rico then I might be decent enough to be considered a Terrible Player instead of being “Free” like I am. One day I’ll be Master lvl but I gotta train my breakers, and my reactions to unorthodox gameplay e.g. triple empty jumps, pseudo-frame-skippy button-checks, and outright Counter-Breakers. I don’t really play characters with good reversals or reversals at all.
I hate to re bring this up, but I did want to mention after reading this thread.
Watching tournament play doesn’t even have to mean you watch for tech. It could simply help you learn which normals work best in which scenarios, to which you can then establish your own tech off of.
I’m not the greatest at understanding frame data, so watching good players gives me a better understanding of spacing.
For example I learned from Zergkiller that Aganos jumping mk is great for air to airs. Simple things like that can really help your game.
There are things I want to say regarding this, but won’t, due to the implications that would follow. Just know that I’m offended by what you said because it was rude, absolutely unnecessary, and largely untrue.
