About the CB and KV bar

so you’re mad because you’re getting punished for guessing? I’m confused. Of COURSE it should hurt if you don’t make a correct read.

idk i’ve been countered before on other TJ players, so it sounds like you’re only missing it. It happens, you’re not going to get rewarded for NOT hitting something properly.

1 Like

I find it a little interesting that from the breakers point of view it’s better to lock out than successfully break in those frame late counter breaker situations. If you successfully break a frame before the counter breaker then you both get reset to neutral. But if you lock out a frame before the counter breaker then you get a full combo punish.

if your reads are on point, you should be putting in the counter-breaker input before your opponent puts in their combo breaker input, not “at the same time” (which it sounds like is what you’re trying to do). the counter-breaker pose is active for plenty long enough that you could input it early and still catch them in a counter breaker at the tail end of the animation if they commit to the action. i’ve done it plenty of times (although not consistently because my reads are only good half of the time). if they get a lockout “at the same time” that you put in your counter breaker, you just put it in late. it’s not a flaw with the mechanic, it just means you were late with your input and you need to do it sooner.

IMO, the entire point of a read is to do your action early because you know it’s going to work. if you read that your opponent is going to throw out a yolo move, you do your move before they even get a chance to process doing theirs. if your read is correct, you get the punish; optimally, you probably punished them before they even got a chance to react to what was happening on-screen.

No, there’s still a risk to counterbreaking if the opponent doesn’t break. It’s only if the opponent is in lockout that you would be reset to neutral.

And just for the sake of argument, even if the opponent can’t punish a counterbreaker you still give up your ender to try one.

by “break early and fail” you mean counter early and fail? you should be frustrated if you counter early and fail. Counters are like SF3 parries, it’ll only work on JUST frame. If the opponent tries to break before it is possible it saves the last input and plays it when possible. So for example I hit a normal and go into a shadow. IF the hit player presses a break during the shadow (non breakable window) the game will then hold that input until the shadow is done (timing lockout) you won’t land the counter because the break was already put into play, if you press counter just as the shadow ends you WILL catch the counter.

1 Like

the PD is still there in your example. by which point still a safe counter as I can keep comboing until the lockout appears, when that happens I press the counter to basically get an advantage ender and move on.

I desperately want this now. You’re a genius!

1 Like

Pretty much.

Not really mad, but sure? I’m just saying it isn’t wise to make an early break because most people guess break, which they are usually greeted with more damage than was initially intended.

Yeah, I’m sure you have. Like everyone has. But, I am certain I am not the only one who has said that CB are sometimes inconsistent for the reasons I stated, some of which come from notable pro players.

That’s the point, I’m not saying it’s a flaw as much as I am saying that the mechanic in my situation sometimes inefficient. I don’t break “at the same time” I break before. I hit CB after my animation of a standing fierce or standing medium and usually they lockout and I get punished. I know it’s before, but how much further back can I input the CB if I haven’t even input the initial hit? Like I said, I hit a standing fierce then immediately a CB. Should I wait for the animation? Wouldn’t that just mean my opponent will guess first.

I could be doing something stupid, I would need to get a video of me juggling with TJ to show exactly what I mean. Though, I believe that the window is just awkward with juggles… idk.

1 Like

Hop kick? Is that SHagos overhead?

the over head

Dont hit the input! Hit CB instead…its that easy.

On ADs you want to do the AD first then the CB…but for any manual type 1 hit move just hit CB were you think they will break. DONE

1 Like

Okay, slow down and fully process all of the details so we aren’t exchanging a hundred messages about this.

No, I meant they break early and fail (get locked out) and then you counter and it frees them from their lockout and freezes you for a punish.

What you and @TRONMAXIMUMa6 are arguing is that a counter breaker input a frame later than a break is too late. That’s certainly the position of @TheKeits and it’s definitely one way to look at it. But it’s difficult to deny that people have been and continue to be frustrated by the lockout-counterbreaker-eat a punish sequence.

But there’s at least one interaction in the game that deliberately blurs this idea of being too late and that’s throw tech. You still don’t have to agree or even like the idea but you can’t suggest that it’s outrageous or unheard of or unfair to reward someone for being too late when the game employs a mechanic for teaching throws that works exactly this ways. How come when someone throws you you are allowed to enter s late throw input to escape it? Shouldn’t you just eat the throw? After all you were trying to throw him but you were late on the inputs? Why should you be rewarded with a “safe” throw option. Throw techs are also not frame perfect- you have a window in which to enter the input to prevent being hurt by the throw.

And @TRONMAXIMUMa6 a break happens instantly. Once the animation starts it is no longer possible to input the counterbreaker. The interaction you think you see where you see the starting animation of the breaker and then get the counterbreaker is just a trick of the imagination. Tusk can deflect a breaker but you can mount counterbreak a break after the animation starts.

Is that how it works? So if the opponent is in the air, I just hit CB, wouldn’t I get a normal because it wouldn’t register it as a combo? Hmm… you have me intrigued. I have to try this now.

No they are still in a combo state and you can counterbreak them. It’s not intuitive but it works.

Interesting, I thought it would’ve screwed up the timing enough for it to be considered a dropped combo. Okay, I will test this. Wish I could lab it, but it seems it is only associated with online play, where there may be minor lag.

oooh didn’t notice you bringing up the throw tech window, that I can’t really speak on but i think it is also a large window. Maybe it has to do with the animation length of throws. that i never really paid attention to, so I can’t really comment on the length the window stands out.

i may have explained it awkwardly. what i mean is, if i’m comboing my opponent and i input my counter-breaker and enter my counter-breaker pose, it’s active for a brief moment (i don’t know the exact frames and don’t want to make up a random number), where as long as i’m in those counter-breaker active frames, if the opponent enters a combo breaker at the tail end of my counter breaker animation, i still win. so you can actually time counter-breakers a little earlier than when you think your opponent is going to combo break, and they might not react fast enough to realize you’re doing a counter breaker, and fall right into it. (this has happened to me an embarrassing amount of times i have to admit, although i’ve done it to other people also)

of course, i could still be making ■■■■ up and getting tricked, haha

Yes! you will get a normal! It will be a medium but it doesnt matter because they were going to break anyway regardless of what button you hit…its conditioning and nothing more.

You have conditioned them to think you are going to do a flip ot again, but this time you just hit CB in its place…BAM!

I think most ppls problem is they are trying to make reads instead of conditioning their opponent to react a certain way.

Its still risky but either way its risky.

Its kind of like walking up on someones wake up and trying to meaty throw them…you get em once or twice but he 3rd time they try to tech it and instead of throwing you sweep them…salt ensues.

@oTigerSpirit Now remember Im talking about manual style hits only…flip outs, juggles, manuals…NOT Auto DOubles…those you can inter the CB just after the AD quickly.


Just to be clear, I know they will break - I understand that I have conditioned them. So instead of throwing out another normal and then hitting CB, I should just hit CB at the moment they think my normal will come out?

This sounds like the best solution I have gotten opposed to the typical, “git gud” comment. If this works, I owe you one.


Yeah, actually you have that right. You can catch a very late break with a counter breaker. I thought you meant the other way around. The counter stays active for a while - althoughyhe exact window varies depending on what the previous input was.