On Sunday I was watching some Marvel 3 with my boyfriend and I definitely told him after watching infinite over infinite etc “ok, that’s the reason I’m not that interested in that game despite playing casually Marvel vs Capcom 2”. And then I analysed how KI solved this with the KV bar. I like that concept!. But then there are things like the counterbreakers reseting the KV bar (which is an important risk-reward game). How about some touches on the KV bar and counterbreaker system?.
I personally feel, no matter what other people say, I can’t rely on counterbreakers. Going to the lab and messing with the AI and frame breaking times confirmed this too me. They aren’t reliabale unless it’s so obvious but SO OBVIOUS (hit CB after first hit heavy ad; frame zero after opener against people mashing, before last hit during heavy linker. Harder to get in a flip out sometimes if they mash but hitting all the three button may get it) …And even so, there can be times they won’t connect for one frame before or later I guess. Even you have the read they are going to break, you can get the time lockout. Because one frame. Yes, it’s not cool.
But the idea of counterbreaker could also be a punish for even guessbreaking or breaking too much. Even not being afraid to break at all.
So, what this has to do with the KV bar? ok, that bar resets after counterbreaking. This is not my idea but my boyfriends idea: he said "How about the reward is just a X% of damage (general to the cast) and hard knock down?
While I suggested half bar of KV already full and the extra damage you can do with it and decide the ender. But I’m not disliking his idea either. If couterbreakers were to be adjusted in some way (since the combo breaking system has always been part of KI, CBs are new, I’m guessing combo breakers will still be part of this game) to be more reliabale or either being used in another form.
Again, I know this game is pretty much done. But I just wanted to share this.
If all a counter breaker does is do some extra damage and a hard knockdown, where is my reward if I have a battery ender? Aganos getting a counter breaker means extra chunks, Jago means extra meter possible instinct juggle, Cinder means battery ender or higher level burnout, the reason they are unreliable for me is because of the potential each character can get out of them and how unique it is. With Fulgore, landing a counterbreaker can be vital to my spin speed in a match. I can land 2 HK auto triples and 1 MP auto triple with 2 light blade dash linkers in between and cannot be broken before the ender. That can make or break a match for me.
Well you’re rewarded for landing the counter at the correct time. Online timing can be odd in some instances due to the varying connection types of other players out there, but the netcode is good enough where this doesn’t happen as much as you might think. I’m not going to argue anymore whether or not counter breakers work, because it’s going to go nowhere and I’ve already voiced my opinion on it a while ago.
The KV bar reset allows for damages up to 70~% or more, what you propose could be that you are rewarded somewhere around that but the KV reset damage is dependent upon the resources the offending player has. Jago for example getting 70% with one bar of shadow, as does most of the cast. A counter breaker is utilized for punishing guess breaking and breaking too much. Recognize patterns in your opponents breaks an you’ll figure it out. Otherwise the meta for breaking now isn’t really reliant on stopping the breaks.
Me for example if you break my combo thats fine, I still have PD and that means I can make my combo even shorter to cash out. With my characters I either do enough damage at lv2, or not enough to even be worried about being broken. Break all you want we get reset to neutral (in some cases) and we start again. If you’re breaking on frame 1 it’s not worth the risk of missing that first frame to give my opponent the chance. prove to me you’re consistent with breaking an Ill counter, otherwise the system works fine, but I think it’s better that it requires the resources before hand to get that big Counter damage. otherwise if I land a counter and you gift me X% damage, there isn’t a point in really continuing the combo I’ll just end it
On flip outs dont hit the flip out button at all, just hit CB in place of the flip out. Thats how you catch them… If you hit flip out and then CB, you will fail.
I have absolutely no problem landing CBs…there is no issue with them. You either hit it at the right time or you dont…but What Ive learned is on juggles you cant hit the juggle then the CB, its CB or nothing. ON autos you have to be quick and hit the auto then the CB.
I think it’s an interesting thought exercise to go through. The Couterbreak mechanic has been discussed and in the past I have been very sympathetic to the idea that it’s very unforgiving. But regardless of how big or small the CB window is, there will always be a point where it is too late. So that problem will never go away completely.
The challenge with making a counterbreaker a hard knockdown or chunk of damage is that it just becomes a risky ender. Remember that once you input a combo ender you can’t be broken so why hit an auto or linker and then CB when you could just input an ender instead? The normal ender is much less risky.
So the counterbreaker as it currently exists is intended to be risky to the person playing offense - they risk both dropping the combo and being punished - but also serves as a deterrent for breaking. If the only hazard to breaking is a lockout or a counterbreaker that leads to a hard knockdown that makes breaking much less risky.
One thing I might be able to get behind is if you hit a counterbreaker on a person who is locked out that leads to a very minimal damage ender or a knockdown - or even a reset to neutral. This would help ease the “yes he broke but I was a frame too late with the CB” syndrome that is so psychologically damaging to everyone.
Yes a universal alternative ender! That’s a great idea! Now you won’t feel robbed everytime somebody inputs incorrectly a combo breaker a millisecond before you input your counter breaker!
I think this would fix the issue. Would it just be a universal hard knockdown or a sequence that brings both players back to neutral with out cashing out damage or meter?
Yes… I mean you could plink it like @ZeroSyndicate says…but I find it works 100% of the time on Flips outs to just do the launcher ender with Omen… walk forward do the flip out and condition them to expect it the next time. Except next time just hit CB in place of flip out and BOOM ! COUNTER BREAKER! …SALT! Works every time and its so much easier to pull off. I mean they are going to try and break right at the same moment you hit flip out, otherwise they get a lock out if they delay.
PS: I was wondering how much damage could I got if I used the shadow eclipse in the end, but I think shadow and then the damage ender would be better. I can’t reproduce it in the lab because I can’t get the AI break where I want. And I don’t have anyone at home to help me with this in the lab (no way they can touch a fighting or any other videogame without feeling is the end of the world)
someone on stream the other day had the balls to hop kick me several times in a row thinking i’d break. Like… think about it why would i break when you’re doing NOTHING in terms of damage an KV is almost blown. you won’t catch me with that lol
Counterbreakers are awful. Every time I have the right read, I am usually never rewarded despite how many times I mash CB before the animation of a move. As TJ, adding normals in between my juggles make the process fun. Sometimes I notice someone guessing on the first hit of a juggle. As soon as I input CB, they get a timing lockout and I get punished for it.
Look, I understand that I need to be the one who inputs CB first, but how in the heck is that possible if I am in the middle of my input? I hit the input > mash CB just before the animation and usually the opponent gets a lockout on my end. Lately, I don’t find them useful, which is unfortunate because of my reads that are on point.
Nah, the person just needs to stop pushing so many buttons. I have dealt with this far too long and still somewhat do. Early guess breaking needs to be punished so that he learns to stop. Usually, the hard way is the way to go. So you go on an rack up all that glorious damage.
Counter breaking manuals and the like are just kinda too much. You want reactionary breaks where you can get a feel for your opponents timing. Most people think to Counter break the manual, it’s only breakable while it’s hitting so it’s a small window. Counter breaking in place of the manual is how you catch them. No it doesn’t always work but, it should be more reliable that way. Condition them where to break, then counter break.
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think it should reset to neutral just like a tech’ed throw. That’s the closest analogous situation. In reality when you tech a throw one guy has thrown you first and you are given a few frames to escape - not enough to do it on reaction but just to correctly predict s throw and thus get the right “read.” This would be the same for a counterbreaker.
The problem with the hard knockdown is that it brings up balance issues - some characters have much better wake up games than others and some have great setups off a hard knockdown. So depending on the matchup you might radically alter the results of this interaction. Whereas a reset to neutral should be about the same for everyone.
Because most people guess and it hurts when you guess wrong. I’ve learned this over and over.
Apparently not if I don’t get it. Jago is fine, I usually don’t miss my counters. Usually only happens with TJ when I am trying to counter a normal because I know they will break. Two things, either they lockout before the counter or I get broken. The window is practically nonexistent.
You’re quite informed with the mechanics. Next time I go into a match I will show you some clips of what I go through. Could be tight window, could be bad connection, could be that I was too early or too late, but it is usually something and it is infuriating to know that I knew he/she would break, but didn’t get rewarded anyway.
The interaction that makes everyone furious is where they break early and fail - leading to a timing lockout immediately before you counterbreak. So you appropriately predicted that they would break but because the opponent guessed wrong you now suffer a potentially full punish. People are less frustrated by being broken as they try to counter.
That’d bring no risk to counter breaking tho. So if im about to max out KV hit counter break, if i miss HKD or small chunk of damage. If i hit, bigger damage.