A Game-Changing Combo System Suggestion

Huh. Had never heard of that OS. Welp, Storm179 has a new trick on defense now. :sweat_smile:

But yeah, that is kinda jank.

With regards to opener->manual being mash breakable (for the situations where it is, because again, it’s certainly not all of them), yes, I would agree that should probably not be the case. The offense still has options to punish this (including resets, opener->linker/delayed linker, or opener->delayed AD), but I tend to agree that a manual that cannot generate a timing lockout is being unfairly gimped.

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It was actually something I noticed and brought up on my own. Paul didn’t even talk about it I don’t think

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Manuals are always lockout-able during startup. Even in opener -> manual cases. The window is small because it doesn’t start until the manual’s startup beings, but it exists. If it wasn’t possible, then this video wouldn’t exist. For manual situations after the opener, you can be locked out at times outside the manual startup, so it’s a little easier.

If you have a 33% chance to guess break Wulf (I actually think, counting timing lockouts, this number is less than 33% on a blind guess, but ok), and you save 30% damage by being right on the guess (again, a simplified number because the odds of you taking damage after the combo completes is still high, assumes no meter from Wulf, etc), then you have to do a LOT of damage during zoning when you do land your correct guess for the damage discrepancy to be worth it. If you are making a 1/3 guess for 30% life, then on your successes you have to do considerably more than 30% damage in return, on average, for that guess to be +EV. Even in the Gargos case, I imagine it’s not true.

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Thank you. The assertion otherwise sounded incorrect to me, but without being able to lab it myself I didn’t want to make a definitive statement. Didn’t want to be utterly wrong on a definitive statement about something I hadn’t tested myself *coughwallsplatthrowtechOScough * :joy:

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Well that settles that then.

Guess I just never seen an early manual lockout.

Ty.

For the record, the reason it has to exist that way is because the lockout system only works when breakable windows are present, or have been present in the past.

Consider just doing opener and then dropping the combo. Your opponent can mash breaker all he wants, but he will never get locked out. Why? Because the combo system has never been active at any point.

The combo system only becomes active when a manual is attempted. The first startup frame is when that happens.

Later in a combo, though, you can (and often do) lock out at different parts. For example, you can lock out after a linker ends, but before a manual is attempted, because the combo system has been activated and every frame, the game is checking combo states.

The only way to “fix” this, if you think it’s a problem, is to turn on lockout states every single time you enter hit stun, which was your original suggestion. The problems with this are pretty severe, though, I think. It greatly impacts feel, and it creates a lot of unintentional lockouts. Take this case for instance; you are trying to activate instinct or tech a throw, but you instead get hit by a normal 1 frame earlier. This turns into an immediate lockout before an opener has even occurred. It would also require a wholesale rewrite of the combo system code to allow lockouts when no acceptable breaker window exists, so it doesn’t make sense to do such a serious change to the game when the benefits aren’t clear.

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After a light opener, a light, medium*, or a throw will all whiff against s.HK because of the step back.

Wulf has good setups where he can fake a tick throw and do s.HK to make the “tech” whiff. Against skilled opponent it’s a high-risk, high-reward trick since you are choosing to drop a combo on the assumption they are going to YOLO break. But against mashers? It’s AHAHAHAHAHAHA GET BODIED BRUH AHAHAHAHA

*tested with Jago and Wulf, who each have pretty good mediums. And wulf has a good throw range

s.HK is kinda like a “mini-ankle slicer” as far as the step back will make alot of counter-pokes whiff and get counter hit’d

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I still think counter breakers are worthless in tight situations.

Tight framed manuals, or even juggle manuals are often missed due to delay or issue with the mechanics understanding that I cannot beat my “mashing” opponent to a counter breaker during mid-juggle.

If those counters would actually work in situations where they are difficult to be successful, than I would have no problem in the combo mechanics.

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Nice crush counter!! =D

I’m starting to use that move more often (and I think it’s -2). But I usually use it in a different way. Still very nice stuff, thanks for sharing! =)

The S3 change for air combos makes it so that you don’t have to bet on a counter breaker to get lockouts against mashers. While counter breaking is harder, I think overall it’s probably a good change for juggle characters. The only exception being moves with massive hit stun (tremor, Cinder recap), since those moves are easy to break but now more difficult to counter break. If you rely on those moves a lot, and use the juggle potential of those characters less in other ways, I imagine it’s more frustrating.

That may be true, but it feels odd. Maybe I just haven’t adjusted, but when I juggle, I usually use TJ. Problem is anytime I see the guy breaking mediums every time, I condition them and attempt to counter, but often get lockout and punished. It could be a connection issue as yesterday I noticed that someone who mashes light on wakeup had priority over Tusk’s charged Spine Splitter.

It just feels unreliable to me. I know I’m not the only one who feels this way, yet there wasn’t a drastic change to the system which is what is strange.