That really wouldn’t solve any of the issues with letting him do that. He’s still in a great situation after a teleport knockdown if he doesn’t switch. He’s just outside the tip of the range of another back MP, and the opponent will be waking up into a high/low from fullscreen–not a GREAT high/low, but it’s still a lot to be able to just OS freely.
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Blocked B+mp → low lighting-> low lighting->shadow lighting
Or
Blocked B+mp → meteor-> low lighting->shadow lighting
Both this setups deal decent damage with one bar, easily doable from a mixup from a fullscreen block.
You can even change the shadow lighting for shadow meteor, generating a new mixup (low lighting or the shadow meteor for high/low mixups, teleport for left/right mixup during shadow meteor)
So, LOTS of options from a block. Even more in instinct. That OS was very powerful
Again, I caution you when you think about balancing moves by letting them only come out on one of hit/block but not the other.
All you are doing is creating very powerful OSes that players with technical knowledge of fighting games will abuse in ways you aren’t envisioning.
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@Dayv0 I’m not talking about those though. I don’t care about the other stuff you could do off of the b.MP - I’m fine with not being able to do those. It’s just the teleport moves I’m talking about.
@DEClimax I was never able to do anything at that range. In my experience the only normal that could reach was another b.MP which can be easily avoided at that point, and his mage specials were mostly too slow on startup or couldn’t reach either (in the case of his stomp).
There are enough ways to guarantee a pip. Also the teleport itself it’s mad fast, so it’s capable to take people off guard
And not being able to pull the setup @DEClimax mentioned doesn’t mean that it’s impossible. It was very easy, so maybe you were doing another thing. I never went to teleport from b+mp, I always used more specials to get some damage and then used teleport for the pip
[quote=“Dayv0, post:65, topic:14974”]
Also the teleport itself it’s mad fast
[/quote]Not really - it’s punishable both on startup and on recovery frames.
We are no speaking about the same
You are right, it’s vulnerable on startup and punishable on block
But what I mean is that is very fast: it will teleport really fast to the opponent and it’s very hard to block, since you can choose side and it’s almost unreactable. So its useful to punish lots of moves (almost all projectiles, rechunks, etc…).
If it gets anticipated can be punished hard, but thats another story
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Wow look at all this Eyedol talk, I missed a lot.
So I think basically Dayv0 is on the right track for things that are problems imo.
The teleport and b+mp nerfs are both justifiable because they amke the game supremely unfun for certain members of the cast. The one thing that I don’t understand is the way things are balanced now instead of making you change playstyles and react to those changes intelligently during switches, now mage is basically a large liability in most cases.
There are too many matchups now where you will at some point end up in Mage in a situation you can’t control and will then have almost no way to create the space you want to be able to work in mage mode, so then you are in mage at a range you really don’t want to be at and you will never switch again for the rest of the match, there is no way to get a move out that will let you switch and you will be mauled until you die. This is not the LARGEST deteriment as if you play smart you can manage the change to some extent but it is something that does happen. I feel like the changes to mediums and heavys causing switch more makes it so you more often switch from warrior but the rate of switching in mage seems to be around the same in actual gameplay. I’ll have to play more to be sure of that but that is how it currently seems to me.
The other thing I want to talk about is the change to his launcher ender, I think this combined with the variety of ways Eyedol could juggle and recapture made for the most interesting meat of his gameplay as you got to run your mind games inside the combo system, it is also something that made the combo system shine to some extent as a lot of the mixup game took place within the framework setup by the game. The change to KV values has really hurt these possibilties and I don’t think it has HELPED anything. If anyone has a good reason as to why this change helps something within the game then I would be interested to hear what your opinions on this are.
All in All I think Eyedol is very strong, but the changes to the mage side has made mage slightly less fun for me and solidfied warrior as being the better side, I wish there was a more even split between them somehow…
I believe that was largely the original intent behind his random switching. Namely, how do you as a player respond when you get a switch at an inopportune time or place? It’s why each stance is allowed to be so overwhelmingly strong at what it does - because at any given moment there is the threat of getting a switch at a terrible time and mauled for it. If you’re allowed to control your switches too freely, then you’ve got a super powerful character all around at all times, and that’s just not good for balance.
Pre-patch Eyedol got to repeatedly cash out one-chance breaks, which kind of breaks the whole concept of the two-way interaction. It’s similar to the Tusk multiple stagger ender thing, and while not as potent, still allowed Eyedol to confirm lockouts via ender to stack on damage. This breaks the whole idea of the player having to commit to actually get good damage, and is a change for the better IMO.
They weren’t repeated one chance, at an absolute minimum you had 3 chances to break anytime you tried to loop launcher juggle
- Intial chance
- Recapture Chance
- Second chance before going back to ender
If Im mistaken and you actually can get to ender again straight after recapture then its still a minimum of 2 chances and not a once chance break as you have portrayed it.
Also as too your point about switching I would say that is true except for the fact Mage is only truly good from 1 range, you can play warrior like a regular character from all ranges since you still get regular tools for moving around at far range in warrior where as in mage you do not have anyway to deal with pressure at close range (a usual deteriment of dedicated zoners). I think one fix for this would be to give invincibility through the first active frame of the Shadow Lightning as it doesn’t really do much damage, and is mostly used to stop people who are jumping from ranges regular anti-airs are trouble to hit from. Its tough to know whether this would become too powerful but tying it to meter I think would help to keep it in check.
Shadow bolt strike (the full screen lightning) is invincible through it’s startup and it’s 1st active fame or longer.
Well, 3 break chances for two cashouts (for decent damage) is still quite a bit better than most of the cast can do without either a bit of setup (Cinder) or meter (multiple characters). I don’t actually think my larger point is much affected by one extra break chance on the recap, especially since he has a few other options he can use there to get to that second cashout.
On the other piece, warrior’s really good, but he’s still limited at least a bit against effective zoning. You’re supposed to be a little screwed if you get a switch at an inopportune time - warrior gets off a little better because his kit is pretty versatile, but the mage limitations feel about right to me.
Are you sure about this? That sounds pretty good, and the team has never talked about Eyedol having a shadow reversal.
I’ll test this later tonight but yeah, sounds weird to me.
Yeah, you try to dp him after the freeze and you’ll jut pass through him and get hit. It’s got a 8f startup so I know that he has startup I-frames and 1st frame I-frames. But since it’s a crush projectile it’s vulnerable to projectile invincible and character projectiles and it doesn’t do much damage. But one can use it I suppose.
What about if you knock him down and then try to meaty him? Surely he can’t reversal with shadow.
U’m double checking it right now(the patch might have stalth fixed it perhaps). Ok so you can meaty it. BUT there are I-frames on it…just not the first startup frame it seems…for whatever reason. Oh now I see, pre freeze it has no I-frames, post freeze it does.
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So it seems the startup is 1,8 that one pre freeze frame is not invincible but post freeze is. Dealing 9% full screen coverage. Only 3 characters can dodge it completely by evaluation. Cinder, Sadira, and Gargos. However the requirements to actually dodge it are so hard to pull off it’s really not worth it and it happens it’s just good unknown timing on your part then eyedol’s.
so it has 8 I-frames after the freeze. So I was wrong in that the active frames have I-frames. Only the post freeze startup does.
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To the cash out point: It really doesn’t do that much damage but this just seems like it’ll get circular suffice to say I don’t agree with STORM on this point but that happens.
For the Shadow Lightning being invincible, I’ll have to test it more, but I know I get hit out of it a lot even in situations where it seems weird that I am hit out of it, I wonder if maybe the 1 startup frame being non invincible is actually a glitch cause it seems weird to have 1 hittable startup frame and then 8 invincible ones…
I experienced something weird the other day, maybe someone can help me:
(Fullscreen)
L. Lighting, L.lighting, shadow lighting
So, this 3 attacks chain together in one single combo, all are projectiles, none of them is an ender.
Then, why shadow Lighting is breakable???
IMO a bug, since shadow lighting is breakable as linker mid close range combo, but that’s not the case here. It also launches (like raw version, mid combo version doesn’t launch), so I don’t see the point of making it breakable
Also I’m ok with the ratio of stance switch. I love random switches with this character, makes me adapt to the situation, and it’s really fun.
The ratio works in general, its specifically that mage can get rushed down so hard a switch will never happen and you will definitely lose. Of course you could fall back on the, well you can break the combo thing, but a good rush down character doesn’t even need to do any long combos against Mage Eyedol because he just has to sit and block like a god to get out of a lot of things. Which is why I was thinking even one reversal the opponent has to think about would be a god send.