What is "good defense?"

General Discussion
21

All I have to do is back away and all of a sudden your Sadira lacks a lot of options. :wink:

22

This is probably true, but then again, he’s all about the extremes, isn’t he? Because of his chunks, you could technically say he has the best defensive options in the game (full chunks), a moderate amount of defense (2 chunks), AND the worst defense in the game (no chunks). Because of his chunk’s variability, he literally covers the whole gamut.

1 Like
23

I started to edit my post before your reply. You can check my update

24

Aganos’ defense is not good, full stop. In S2 your argument might fly a little, but in S3 his defense is unambiguously bad, and it doesn’t improve when he gets more chunks. In neutral or on his own offense he becomes harder to hit, but that’s not really what people mean when they talk about a character’s defense being good or bad.

When he is knocked down, Aganos has to play the guessing game between heavy meaty/throw, and he doesn’t even get to backdash to give himself another option. If he guesses wrong, he gets hit. He also has an absolutely massive hitbox, which means he has a very difficult time avoiding pressure altogether, and that he’s pretty susceptible to ambiguous jump-ins.

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25

If there’s 1 thing I’ve picked up from Infil’s replies, it’s that defense doesn’t just include blocking, back-dashing, and other purely defensive manuevers, but that it also includes more offensive-based options too. In this regard, Aganos has more opportunities to open up his opponents than any other character. As they say, “the best defense is a good offense.”

26

Eh
yes, but in a way that isn’t necessarily useful when talking specifically about defense. It’s great if I’m an absolute monster on offense, with airtight setups and resets for days, but it doesn’t really matter that I have those things if Spinal knocks me down in instinct with a skull or three to pressure with. At a certain point, your options become “block, shadow counter, throw tech, backdash, reversal.” As a player, how good your defense is is largely a function of how well you use those options when it’s no longer your turn. As a character, how good your defense is is largely a function of how good your backdash, shadow counter, throw range, and reversal are.

A character’s ability to forcibly take back his turn or to just tell his opponent “stop” is a function of how good that character’s defense is. But having to guess on that option (Hisako counter, Aganos shadow ruin/pulverize), is generally objectively worse than an all-purposes “NO” option like Jago’s DP.

4 Likes
27

You forgot jump.

28

Personally, I don’t think fully-invincible anything, like Jago’s DP, should even exist. That might be a bit niave to say, but I actually like that Aganos is forced to choose certain things on wakeup (like a shadow pulverize over shadow ruin or vice versa) - it makes things far more interesting.

29

Not really
 It has never stopped me before. :smiley:

30

The above link will take you to another thread. Long story short there is no such thing as a weak character, if the player really knows how to work that character, any underdog can bring a world of hurt.

31

This is largely my argument in regards to matchups, but you’d be surprised at how many people around these parts will be quick to shoot that idea down.

32

There is absolutely such a thing as a weak character. Characters with objectively worse options than others are weak, and characters with objectively better options than others are strong. An excellent player can make up for a character’s weaknesses, but no amount of player skill will change the nature of the character’s moves.

That being said, KI doesn’t really have weak characters, due in no small part to very strong universal systems.

33


and this is largely why I stopped playing other FGs, but still enjoy KI. :wink:

34

So you do acknowledge that yes, there is absolutely such a thing as a weak character, and no, player skill does not change the objective qualities of a character?

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35

Fact 1: A good player can win with any character
Fact 2: Since the characters are different from each other, some of them have advantages and disadvantages between each others(some are weak to zoning, some have great zoning)
Fact 3: Since Fact 2 exists, a good player can take advantage of his character strong points against another character weak points

So, what happens when a player who is very good with a character who is good in everything, but very bad against zoning, fights against a player very good with another character who is good in everything, and extremelly good with zoning?

The numbers says that the first has more chances to win than the second. But still, it’s not free, he has to win the match anyway.

Could we theorize about how would be, on paper, a fight between two different characters?

Yeah, why not. It’s only theory, and each of us have different opinions. Maybe even we can get to a consensus!

And what’s the use of this? Use the character who wins more theorical fights? No, it would serve us as study about the characters, and we can see the weak and strong points of each character. Maybe this help us to see a glaring weakness, and discuss about it.

But all of this already exists! Its called Tier list, a funny unofficial “tool” to discuss and understand the game better.

But OF COURSE a bottom tier fighter can win a top tier fighter. Dont take tier lists that way, they are a discussion tool, not a “do not choose this character” list

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36

I’m not going to go through all of this again, guys
 We’ve been down that road before and already know where it goes.

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37

That being said. Sounds like you defeated your own argument and we are in agreement.

38

I mean
no? What am I supposed to say to this? KI specifically being a very balanced game doesn’t change the fact that:

  1. the concept of weak characters and strong characters exists
  2. for the most part whether a character is weak or strong can be measured
  3. no amount of player skill will make a character that is objectively weak any less so
  4. KI does have characters that are stronger than others
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39

The concept may exist in street fighters or Tekken. But I’m not concerned about that. Once again a player that really knows how to work his character and read his opponent will have very little vulnerability.

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40

One, the concept exists in all games, whether or not a weak character is actually currently present in the game. Two, there is a big difference between saying that a good player can find success with a weak character and that a good player makes a character not weak.

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