So I’m at home with a real keyboard and a moment so I thought I would jump back in.
First, I think people are already recognizing that there are a lot of different facets to this. And I think probably everyone will agree that there’s no compelling reason to try to change any core elements of the game to make it more appealing to women. KI is a fighting game. So, the questions for the game is within those parameters, what can be done to maximize female participation and interest.
I generally agree with this. But within my lifetime the NFL has turned this on its head. When I was a kid it was just a “given” that women didn’t like football. It’s too violent and aggressive and confrontational, and it’s just not a game for women. But sometime between then and now the sport has become hugely popular with women. No, they don’t outnumber male football fans and they aren’t taking over. But any NFL game the stadium is filled with women and it’s not unusual at all to see women football fans. It would be interesting to find out how the NFL engineered that social change. Some of it is clearly simple silly stuff that shouldn’t matter, but does - like selling pink player jerseys. Lots of women would rather wear a pink jersey than whatever the team color is. I’m sure it was an epic battle in the NFL’s branding department over that, but now you see them everywhere.
Anyway, more on topic. I think as far as the game itself, the only real option available is to make the depiction of female characters relatable to women. It’s okay if they are sexy as long as they are awesome, and I think KI has done that really, really well. Remember, we aren’t trying to change the game to attract female gamers so much as just not driving away the female gamers that might actually be interested in the game.
The second aspect is the “community” aspect around the FGC. This includes things like Twitch chat. I think @TempusChaoti has it right - we need to turn that stuff off until and unless the services will get rid of the anonymity that makes people think they can act like idiots without any personal consequences. That won’t happen overnight, but I think it will eventually happen. We used to have an entire world where it was acceptable to be a misogynist, chauvinist, leering degenerate. Now, you can’t be that way in public - but you can get away with it online. We need to evolve the social systems on the internet the same way they have evolved in actual societies.
For what it’s worth, thanks to all for having mature discussion about a sensitive topic. I hope people don’t come in here and ruin it.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post comments that are discriminatory in nature.
*Original post, click at your own discretion.
[spoiler]
I would also like to add…Along with not being interested in fighting games, I would venture to say that women (on average) would not be as predisposed to be GOOD at fighting games. Hand-eye coordination, adrenaline, desire to beatdown opponents, reflex speed, time spent being non-social while researching fighting matchups or in a dojo and doing this all for a 1 v 1 match?..I’m sorry, but males will CLEARLY tend to be BETTER ON AVERAGE.
You mix those 2 concepts…
Women like team oriented endeavors, and tend to be more nuturing than males (on average).
Women not being as good at fighting games (on average)
…And what do you get? A FG community that is less than 5% femaie players (I don’t think that this is an unreasonable figure, judging from streamers, gamertags, forum members and all other experiences I’ve had with the FGC over the past 15 years online)…This isn’t rocket science, honestly. [/spoiler]
Ignoring the obvious troll in the room, I’m pretty impressed by the different, mature responses so far. And I agree with TempusChaoti that anonymity is probably a big issue. Harassers will cry censorship whenever someone takes away their soapbox, but to paraphrase the xkcd guy, when the best defence you have for your argument is that it’s not illegal, that’s not a great start.
For the NFL argument, a lot changes between when something is first established and now.
I’m sure a HUGE reason for more female football fans is because of their PARENTS. And as everybody should know, parents are THE BIGGEST influence on their children.
It’s the same thing with video games! Being a “nerd” was so frowned upon at the time, but look at it now! People tote around their community BRAGGING about being a nerd. The rise of female gamers is without a doubt contributed by the influence of parents!
When a show is established, one of the FIRST things in pre-production is figuring out your audience. Fighting games and video game in general are targeted to males BECAUSE of the male demographic that is interested in them. Of course with the popularity of video games and parents raising children on them, the only thing that will occur are more male and female players! So honestly I wouldn’t force change upon ANY video game because eventually, there will be a nigh equal amount of female players as there are male. You shouldn’t change the way gaming is, just wait for the world to catch up.
I agree with some of what you’ve said…Your claim that there will be an EQUAL number of female players as male players in the FGC??..I have to respectfully disagree, for reasons I’ve stated earlier.
Yeah… Super rough writing to be frank. I got pretty lazy and didn’t wanna keep writing… I probably should’ve made it more clear that I mean’t video games in general and not just fighting games, because I do agree with you as well.
the FGC is so difficult though, even with guys, i’ve tried to recruit my whole fam and friends to play MKX or Killer Instinct and it’s just too difficult for them. A lot of people just wanna jump in and play, not spend time learning all these combos and basic rules… It sucks, but I think the FGC will always be one of the smaller communities in gaming.
I think this is largely true. But I still think there is value in not actively hampering women’s ability to participate and enjoy the game and the scene. Sure we will eventually get there but it’s better to accelerate that process rather than work against it.
And I don’t think we are shooting for 50/50 gender ratios on the FGC - I think that’s unrealistic. But I believe we could be doing a lot better than the 99/1 we have right now.
Actually I would have to respectfully disagree with you about women being not as good. I think you can find some evidence, even if it’s mostly anecdotal, that women are not generally as interested in video games with complex controls and competitive games. But there’s really no biology that says they would be worse at using a controller or a fightstick. I think it’s a mistake to think that gender inequality in physical sports translates to video games. Almost all of those physical inequalities are directly related to size and strength. There is some evidence that men have faster reactions - but this gap is actually narrowing over time likely due to the increased amount of time and probably has a big component of practice. Women gamers are likely to be high performing in terms of reactions just like male gamers.
Interestingly a lot of that research also suggests that men are slightly faster but women are slightly more accurate. Take that for what it’s worth. It’s well known that women are actually better natural marksmen, and that its lack of interest rather than natural ability that keeps women out of the shooting sports.
I’m rambling a bit but I would also touch on how this impacts your metric for success. I see someone like Danika Patrick and she gets a lot of flack basically because she’s not the greatest race car driver who ever lived. She’s still a hell of a lot better than me. I don’t think we need to have a female KI World Cup champ to demonstrate that the game is appealing to women or that women can be good at it.
Is true that figthing games don’t appeal to women that much. But Fighting games alone are a special genre and many gamers aren’t into it. It’s also true that baby girl’s parents told them “don’t play that game, is too violent / or it’s for boys”, but then you have female girls/women playing COD which I find to be a very violent game indeed, because of the porpouse itself and the behaivours they promote. I see fighting games more like “karate” or “tennis” and team games are more like “football”, they are different diciplines with different mind sets, even though you need reflexes and coordination in both games.
But going back to what I said: I’ve seen a little girl playing MK because she wanted (Wow, it reminds me of myself) and not because her father, brothers, anyone else told her. That’s very strange to see, if you let me. I was amazed. So, maybe if the little girls see the game and feel the interest to try it out without ppl being negative about it, they may feel more comfortable to invest time and understand what they are playing. But society and culture has a lot to do when talking about “why women don’t like gaming the same way men do”, well, it may be cultural but it also may be because they just aren’t into and have other things and interest in mind (which is totally fine). The problem is when they are imposed to like or not to like without giving the chance to see by themselves. You can’t force them to like it, you can just open the door and let them try by themselves.
PS: Sorry if I made mistakes or I can’t express well enough, I’m not native English speaker.
It’s interesting because I have quite a few female friends that play KI and MKX and we often discuss this very subject. And really it is all about making them feel welcome in the community and welcome to attend events like EVO.
There was nothing more cringeworthy than when we had ‘Women’s Only SFIV Tournament’ it just ended up implying that there should be a segregation and that they somehow shouldn’t be as good as men. What I think should be done is some market research into what games have a high female player base and then incorporate those elements into a fighter.
KI and other fighting games shouldn’t need to change themselves but if a more female orientated game was represented at an event like EVO then more female players would show up for all games because the environment would seem like less of a ‘boys club’
Also, I don’t think that women are as motivated in a non-nurturing environement (which the FGC can most certainly be)…Reflex arguments aside, there are other reasons that could hamper female success in this genre.
Ridiculously oversexed female characters that drive women away
Tolerating a ridiculous and juvenile “boys club” culture that lets jerks on Twitch electronically wolf whistle like a bunch of idiots any time a female player makes an appearance.
I agree. I feel like it can’t be understated how much representation matters. I’ve known girls who had literal tears in their eye from the scene in the new Star Wars where Rey gets that lightsaber, because they say it’s the first time they really felt like they were welcome in this world.
Similarly, Marvel comics continues to see larger numbers of women readers as they work to include more books both starring and written by women.
Hm, I don’t think that’s FGCs problem though, that WAS a gaming problem in general, for both those things.
People complain about SF5 all the time, but to me, the characters don’t even feel real, they’re like toys. You could argue the same thing with characters like Zangief or shirtless ryu. Or even “bathing suit Shulk” in smash bros! None of those characters drive the male demographic away, heck, I LOVE playing as the bathing suit Shulk. I think it’s funny.
Sure, I can agree with your second point, but it doesn’t help when the female streamers themselves endorse their bodies or the fact that they’re female… It’s a two way street, you need both females and males to respect each other.
@MrQuaDriller I disagree with the way MARVEL has been doing their business. As an avid comic reader and long time comic book fan, MARVEL has driven away so much of their original audience and REPLACED IT with a new “casual” demographic. Not only that, but they HEAVILY focus on sexuality, race, and gender instead of story. And while it is good to support different demographics, it is not alright to prioritize them over one another OR the story.
A bit off topic, but i’m very proud of our community for being very civilized about such a sensitive topic.
One problem with that illustration…Hardly any females, males or anything in between would be attracted to the “Warrior” in your example. Hardly any males would want to look like that either. Lol.
Insert coin, try again.
*Tone it down a bit, and you get a He-Man type figure that plenty of boys wanted to be like, and that plenty of women (and others) would find attractive, AKA the dude from Thor (who is unmistakably very marketable due to his looks). The illustration doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny.
