The problem with shadow jago?

[FGCSlamjam]

Ive been spending the last month so just watching how other people play shago on streams and youtube to get a different angle on the character.

I know im not the best at this game and while thats a valid criticism ive always felt like there was something off about shagos offense.

After analyzing the characters playstyle i think ive finally put my finger on it.
Shagos most reliable offense is to be a poor mans sadira.

Sadiras damage used to suck because all her offense was in the air with juggles. Thats where shago is, his offense is mostly juggle based. Particularly a grab.

He has a lot of options, but outside of a raw slide, he doesnt realy have a good way to break into the combosystem. Hes either jumping backwards and spamming fireball or dashcancelling into a grab. You can dashcancel into footdive but more often than not the right choice is to grab.

Yes he can recapture with his shadow footdive but to me thats just a symptom of how fragile his offense is. His damage isnt grounded and his offense now seems more about opening people up than juggling people.

So heres the part where you get to call me a scrub, i think shago would really benefit if his surge slide didnt pop people up, and his dashcancel surge footdives were more neutral on block. There has to be more ways for him to break into the combosystem with his options than raw reads which he gets punished for way more than any character or his lone shadow recapture which bottlenecks his entire offense.

If im off the mark then please give me suggestions on how to go about this character differently.

[SullenMosquito]

Shadow Jago has a good ground game too. It just isn’t Jago quality. Surge slide has uses but surge divekick is way better. He also has pretty good zoning. He doesn’t do what sadira does, he is grounded more like a TJ. He is a mixup slippery hit and run like Cinder minus the air combos. His goal with juggling is to get you to the ground eventually.

[FGCSlamjam]

Youve outlined the whats but dont mention the hows. Im talking about the hows and the hows arent strong enough.

[SneerfulWater57]

I’ve not picked up Shadow Jago, i’ll preface my post with that. I can’t really tell you how to go about him different then what your’e doing now. And i’m not calling you that word, either.

But as far as the changes you’d like to try? I dunno. Surge, in an of itself, is pretty nice to have access to vs the majority of the cast that has to fill their meter bar to have access to a shadow move. But with the way all of his other moves are setup, especially making his surge divekick neutral on block “could” lead him to degenerate. What other use would a Shadow Jago use of surge? Especially since it puts him so close to the opponent and could lead to all sorts of shenanigans. That for a partial bit of meter. On paper, i think it sounds solid, but in ‘theory practice’ (if that makes sense) it becomes kinda shaky.

As far as his surge slide not popping people up on hit? I think i’m kinda neutral on that. From my personal perspective, i’d be upset with such a change since i struggle with blocking that damn move. But costing a bit of meter (even if it’s from full screen) to get in, but start a grounded combo, i think would be fine. It’d better be punishable as all get-out on block though.

[FGCSlamjam]

Thank you. Ive been looking for real feedback on shago and how to play him and replies tend to mistake adhominem as advice more often than not.

Ive positioned myself in humbleness to take on the vitriol, and yes everyone has the self awareness to actively identify when they make these comments, that comes with seeking mentorship in an environment where you are all competing against one another.

Its been rough to say the least, so thank you for making an earnest reply.

[Dayv0]

Shago has plenty of tools to start a grounded combo. Overall, Shago is in a good spot.

Is Shago one of the weakest characters among the cast? IMO, yes
Is Shago weak? IMO, No

How is that? Well, if you have, for example, a classroom with 5 students, 4 of them with an A calification, and one with B+ the B+ student is still a good student. Not the best in the class, but he is a good student

Shago(and a few others) is a B+ among a group of A students. He is viable, he is good.

Could Shago be improved? Maybe, but you have to be careful.

Shago is what I call a “scrub killer”. His toolset is very particular, since it seems designed to punish the low level “bad habits”.

For example:
-His divekick leads to combo against grounded opponent, and is hard to antiair for “bad” players, so you could just spam it against low skilled players and get profit
-Anihilation deals 48% damage if you do something very unsafe, so if your opponent is a “yolo” ruin player(for example) who usually performs very unsafe moves, you can punish them with guaranteed damage.
-H. Slide usually hits against people who isn’t used to block
-His juggling game is hard to break for less skilled players(and even experimented ones)
-J. HP as cross up is hard to stop for players who are not used to it, or who doesn’t know to anti air properly.
-Cross up forward dash into dp is really hard to stop, even more if you are expecting a throw

He can be used in high level with success. He is not a bad character at all. He still seems to have some uncapped potential.

Also, Shago has great walkspeed, so you should use him more grounded, playing footsies with forward HK into dash, HP into slide, blocked c.mk into overhead… He doesn’t have to rely so heavily into his specials. Optimal Shago gameplay comes from optimal grounded play

[FGCSlamjam]

This has been my criticism of shago. Regarding being known as the scrub killer in the game, hes the character that relies on things outside of himself to win the most.

Your gameplan cant revolve around counting on your opponent being bad. Im not sure about your analogy of shago being a B student in an S+ classroom but when everything you do is (-) on block, theres really no right way to approach someone. Its not just their turn after they block your fwd Hk into overhead, its also a whiff punish. Not only do they get initiative, they get to deal damage.

To me his entire gameplan boils down to backflip fireballs until you can dashcancel into a grab and juggle. he has to take all the risk if he wants to be active in his offense and that means his opponents dont have to take any.

The argument to why shago is good is because hes good at opening opponents. But three or so years later is that really still true? When people can option select block the crap out of his dash cancel mixups, or when the only reliable way to deal damage and not get punished after getting in is to grab, can you really say he still has that unpredictability?

Hes so unsafe and punishable and all his tricks are old. He counts on people making a mistake while characters like jago have three or so stickied threads on his subforum on how to get in.

Ive been pmd by the community on how to better handle my frustration with the character and if i come off as unauthentic i apologize, i want you to know im not trying to come off as an expert, i make these suggestions because i hope to either improve how i play or to contribute to the bigger discussion of shagos viability.

Please allow me to be wrong, if i cant speak for fear of being wrong then ill never know where the holes are in how i play.

[MDMMORNING]

Regarding the suggestions contained in the OP -

Sg.Slide being a juggle-starter I think is supposed to be a boon, in that one of his more dangerous mixup options leads to difficult-to-break damage. The problem is that the pop-up from Sg.Slide causes this weird side-switch-in-place interaction due to the launch angle, and instead of being difficult-to-break, it becomes his most difficult to follow-up on option. This is needlessly frustrating, and could be fixed with either a better launch angle (y’know, like, away from him instead of directly above his head) or as an opener. Personally, I’d rather have a better launch angle to keep the break difficulty (as so many of his animations are ripped from Jago, his in-combo breakability is pretty well practiced despite his character being so young). Either way, his current Sg.Slide is frustratingly difficult to follow-up on consistently.

As for Sg.Dive being closer to even… I’m not opposed, but I’m also unsure of letting him have something of an “unmoving shimmy” mixup off of a blocked left/right. If he’s even on Sg.Slide, he can go for throw safely, and the opponents options are tech, jab, or jump. After a left/right, I don’t think the opponent should be placed directly into another (albeit weaker) mixup for free. As it is currently (-3), Shago is safe after the Sg.Dive mixup, but loses his turn. I think, in principal, this is fair.

[Dayv0]

@FGCSlamjam

hes the character that relies on things outside of himself to win the most.

? I don’t understand. His gameplan revolves around him condicionating his opponent into misreads, so he can land his mixups.[quote=“FGCSlamjam, post:7, topic:16097”]
Im not sure about your analogy of shago being a B student in an S+ classroom but when everything you do is (-) on block,
[/quote]

I said an A classroom. If the classroom was a S+, then Shago is a S-. My point is that the difference is small. All IMO, not facts. Also, Rash is also (-) in about everything. Do you think he is a bad character?

@FGCSlamjam

Its not just their turn after they block your fwd Hk into overhead, its also a whiff punish. Not only do they get initiative, they get to deal damage.

But you have more options. You can F+HK into backdash, build some meter, and then use surge moves(which are safer). Shago has great space control with fast fireballs, good normals, a good space covering dash(even invulnerable at some points) which is good for surprise throws, extraordinary walkspeed, nice air normals… None of these is negative.

Shago should not use negative moves by default. He sould get meter to use surge and remain safer, using normals as standart approach.[quote=“FGCSlamjam, post:7, topic:16097”]
Hes so unsafe and punishable and all his tricks are old. He counts on people making a mistake while characters like jago have three or so stickied threads on his subforum on how to get in.
[/quote]

But Jago(or any other) hasn’t a guaranteed way to enter. All that threads are “how you could”, not “do this, you are in”. At the end, it’s all mindgames, execution and reads. If Jago uses m. windkick and then DP, sometimes he will be right, others he will be punished. Same as Shago. Just try a more conservative and safer approach.

@FGCSlamjam

Please allow me to be wrong, if i cant speak for fear of being wrong then ill never know where the holes are in how i play.

Of course you can be wrong man, everyone is wrong at a determinated moment. We learn from our mistakes, and I(among others) will try to help you about that. Don’t fear to be wrong. Even more, you want to learn, so you are in the right path

Just as conclussion: IMO Shago is good. He has the tools, he has everything he needs. He is not a bad character at all. He could use some improvements? Maybe, but he doesn’t need to be fixed, since he is functional. He just needs to be polished

[SullenMosquito]

Usually referencing more one direction characters playstyles is how I try to express a characters play style. Shadow Jago is extremely unsafe unless meter is used via surge. He is very good at in and out, his dash covers full screen in 2 goes. He has a vertical and horizontal dp so he is good at chasing too. But it he misses something or is blocked he can be punished. His slides both surged and unsurged are unsafe. You can stuff the teleport kick before it comes out on either side. He can also be offensive while running away via a dive kick from back dash and jump back. He has some air mobility and juggles but is not a poor mans Sadira. He plays mostly grounded. His throw juggles but it doesn’t lead to much unless he recaps. His fireballs are also unsafe at close range. His best one is an air one that clips the top of their hurtbox as he is landing. The best description I have for him is a better in neutral and footsies Cinder where Cinder is hit and run.

[FGCSlamjam]

…Im conflicted, on one hand I think shago needs a buff, on the other hand I feel like Im trying to play a different game than everyone else whenever I use the guy.

Im switching to Jago in awhile. I dont want to sound like Im whining but Ive been watching FloE’s tutorials and he said something that struck a cord with me. You dont learn to street fighter by playing C.Viper or El Fuerte. I think Shago might be in the same boat. I still think he needs a buff but I also know learning the game through Shago like I have is like learning to tapdance with your hands.

Anyways, thanks for the critique.

[ZeroSyndicate]

The ONLY ONLY ONLY buff I’d give on shago is perhaps a 5% damage increase on shadow damage enders an DK linker. Thats it nothing else. ESPECIALLY with the new PD update. He opens people up generally for free. Sh.DK is slow enough to break to risk for a slight damage boost, an shadow dp should be fine as well. Anything more I think would be far too much. Jago normals, fast walk speed, and difficult mixup game, builds meter quickly. If not damage, then maybe put him a 0 on block for surge dive kick, even that would be a stretch. Leave shago alone imo.

[MDMMORNING]

@ZeroSyndicate

…perhaps a 5% damage increase on shadow damage enders an DK linker… ESPECIALLY with the new PD update. He opens people up generally for free. Sh.DK is slow enough to break to risk for a slight damage boost, an shadow dp should be fine as well. Anything more I think would be far too much… If not damage, then maybe put him a 0 on block for surge dive kick, even that would be a stretch. Leave shago alone imo.

I’m of the opinion that Shago is on the weaker end of the cast, but that’s not a bad thing - characters that can be as frustrating as Shago to fight shouldn’t be exceptionally strong.

Tiny damage buffs, especially just to those two things, might not actually be a bad idea. Slight damage buff on EX.DK makes representing it outside of lockouts more enticing (cuz it’s silly to set it up inside a lockout, it eats so much time!) and makes breaking it more tempting for the opponent, which incentives us to play the counterbreak game a little more (which I think is a good thing).

Damage buff on EX.DP would be nice for when we drop the bar on a cashout, but considering the PD changes might be a bit much? If it’s only EX.DP, and not regular DP or Dmg Ender, I don’t think it’d be so bad, but that’s before I propose a crazy idea that might make it too good? I dunno. I’m usually against just buffing damage, especially if we can maybe find subtler paths of improvement.

Not sure about even Sg.Divekick. That might be a bit far. So long as we can backdash out, I think “safe” (-3) is plenty good.

Personally, I think an improvement to his Sg.Slide launch angle could go a long way in helping out the threat of his Stepkick mixups, as outlined in another thread whose topic is such.

CRAZY IDEA: I think it would beneficial if we could cancel buttons into Dark Gift [HP+HK] - this could open up tons of possibility, especially relative to how we go about popping INSX in the first place, and how we play out that initial INSX pop. At the very least, it would offer us more or better juggle conversions via INSX, and incentivise more creative utilization his INSX outside of trying to land Demon or frantically trying to burn out a bar. It may even give us some errant conversions into unbreakable PD stacks via EX.Fireball’s we otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford and the like.

Those two are the big ones I hope the team looks at:

• Sg.Slide launch angle adjustment for reliability
• Allow normals to cancel into Dark Gift

Thoughts?

[ZeroSyndicate]

Cancel like feral canceling though? It’d be cool, I’d LOVE the potential that could do, but I’d have to give up Annihilation because of it. For it to balance out I mean.

it is -3 on sgdk, which is NOT bad at all. I’m fine with it.

If you allow cancel into dark gift you’re right on the dp damage buff. You can cancel dp into shadow dive kick before combo, so I’d of course say no to the damage buff on regular damage ender and dp only EX damage ender.

[MDMMORNING]

@ZeroSyndicate

Cancel like feral canceling though? It’d be cool, I’d LOVE the potential that could do, but I’d have to give up Annihilation because of it. For it to balance out I mean.

I don’t quite think we’d have to give up Annihilation for it… I mean, it’s not quite a Feral Cancel, as the Gift animation is actually sorta long. There isn’t near the level of “anything-freestyles-into-anything” potential of FC. We would definitely gain juggle extensions and discounted recaps and cashouts and PD stacks, but if the cancellation were limited to buttons I don’t quite think we’d be stepping into “have to trade Demon” territory. Maybe a little damage off of the Demon, like drop it to 45%? 42%?

If it were actually so good we’d have to trade Demon for it, I’d rather keep Demon, personally. I’m a big big fan of Demon.

[ZeroSyndicate]

youd have to adjust the gift animation for that to work though. I’m just not understanding I guess, keep the same gift animation time. The way im seeing that in my head is almost like how domi did the firebomb loop, I dpxxEXdk… end to dmg giftxxdivekick. Or do you mean off normals like in neutral? b.hkxxgift then go nuts.

[MDMMORNING]

@ZeroSyndicate

off normals like in neutral

Yeah, more or less. I was thinking more specifically in terms of mid-juggle application, but being able to trigger it off of buttons in neutral could be incredible, like b.HKxx or st.HPxx, possibly other high stun moves; I actually feel really silly for not considering that as my core reasoning XD. I imagine at closer ranges this cancel would wind up (-) on hit, as it feels like a pretty long animation (but I don’t know the actual animation length) - there may be a need to adjust Gift’s animation length, though I guess that would be a matter of balance, and whether or not it keeping it as is allows for undesirable confirms and/or button links. The confirm potential could be really really good, but would it be good enough to necessitate hamstringing another element of his game? I think that’s the aspect of it to be really worried about from a balance level - I don’t think the juggle extension into expenditure would be overly powerful, especially considering how easy to break so much of his stuff is.

[FGCSlamjam]

wow someone liked all my posts on this old thread for some reason. After re-reading myself from almost a year ago I feel compelled to reply.

Hello past me.

Yes you are right about all these things, I would also like to give you advice on how to play Shago as the you from the future. Putting it into Magic: the gathering terms, Shago isnt an aggro character, hes a control/tempo character.

While most characters can keep trading and generating threat, Shago CANT. He wins by being one or two steps ahead like a Simic Flash deck.

If Shadow Footdive is the reactive bottleneck for capitalizing on an opponents mistake, Gatekeeper is the proactive bottleneck of trying to find a way into the combo system.
cl.LP or 2 cl.LKs will make L.slide safe. This is the button youve been looking for.

Overall, the main hangup that we had during this time is our frame of reference to fighting games revolved around Ryu’s Cr.MK -> Fireball. You only knew how to make buttons safe with specials, not how to make specials safe with buttons.

In conclusion, Dash TP setups with Gatekeeper when theyre far, after TP or when you’re this close you can go for mixups or for the Cl.Lbutton -> L.slide option. You dont have to use his TP buttons.
Learn to react to a Gatekeeper, if it lands do a slide, if it doesnt, then shenanigans or dont even do anything.
Also he has a Dimitri, not a dragonpunch, Cr.HP is your anti-air.

As of right now Im trying to figure out what to do when an opponent is midrange. If theyre far I can gatekeeper, if theyre close I can cr.LP or Cr.LK -> Cr.LK ->X.slide on reaction, but medium range idk. Maybe I’ll go with Ryus golden combo.

Next time I see this post I hope my future self will offer me advice.

[ItzTymeToDul]

@FGCSlamjam

wow someone liked all my posts on this old thread for some reason