There really just isn’t any evidence of guess breaking being less prominent in S1. Some people think maybe there was, anecdotally, but… there’s really no evidence. It’s not true when you think about the games theoretically, and it’s not true if you look at old video footage. Why do people still think this is true?
As for the footsies debate, again, I disagree. Special moves can be used in footsies. If you think some movement techniques are “low risk, high reward”, then okay, let’s talk about those, but don’t pretend they are solely the domain of S2 when S1 had Spinal, Fulgore, and Sadira, in addition to a largely safe on block full screen wind kick, shadow wind kick going across the screen in 5 frames, Wulf doing invincible dash to 0 frame shadow eclipse, etc. These things are not “footsies” any more than TJ doing powerline is. To think otherwise is to be disingenuous and to actually harm KI moving forward.
I think a large part of this debate comes from the fact that people fondly remember Season 1, as they should! A new fighting game, a new community, a new gameplay system to figure out, and the characters were really cool. But, more than a year removed from that, we should be able to look back and objectively analyze what was and wasn’t true about S1, and stop pretending that S2 invented a bunch of strategies that weren’t viable or encouraged in S1 as well, especially if it had been played another year. We came at S2 with a year’s worth of knowledge on the KI system, so we started to figure things out a bit; almost everything that is true about S2 can be applied to S1 as well, and I’m willing to debate this point.
If you think KI is “too YOLO”, you have a few options:
Discuss WHY you think this is the case, and present specific situations and facts, in proper context. Provide a suggested improvement to the game (ie, a balance change) that would eliminate this problem, and be open to discuss why this is or isn’t a good idea with others. Example: “I think Jago being able to cancel the recovery of DP into shadow DP is a bad idea. I think reversals should always be punishable; when they aren’t, they should cost precious resources or be incredibly situational, and I argue that Jago holding 1 stock of shadow meter is not enough of a unique situation for this to be true, since he has the best meter build in the game. I feel correctly baiting a reversal and having to guess as to whether you can punish it or not is a negative aspect of any fighting game that shouldn’t exist.” See how I admit my biases, present a suggested fix, present sound reasoning, and am willing to discuss?
Stop playing the game and go play something else. See if you can find a “less YOLO” game in Marvel, MKX, or SF4 (all of which have moments of insane anti-footsies play by this magic KI definition), or wait until SF5, which will undoubtedly be a paragon of game design and will make sure no characters can bypass your optimal range with a safe on block approach and force you to make guesses of any kind to survive.
I feel like we’re all arguing against an imaginary person. I think the people who this is aimed at aren’t included in the ~20 people who frequent these forums with any sort of competitive disposition.
Really though, the whole comparison is entirely subjective. SF players will say KI has no footsies or fundamentals… MK players will say it has no gore or combo complexity. Meanwhile, I can say that SF characters are too copy-paste, and that MK is all 50-50’s.
I can also play KI online without wanting to slit my wrists.
Eh… I dunno. There’s a pretty strong growing sentiment among certain crowds (some streamers, some twitch chats) that KI is just a guess-fest and rewards bad play. They start talking in memes/subscriber twitch emotes and ignore what is actually happening on the screen. They don’t analyze the variables around a situation and what they can do to stop their opponent from guessing, instead they just complain about it. They don’t design tight safe jump setups or meaty timings to prevent non-invincible reversals from hitting them, instead they play by feel and hope it works out. These people definitely exist… I wouldn’t say they’re imaginary. In fact, at least in the twitch crowd, they might be approaching the majority.
I feel all this stuff can be squashed by information, practice, and the correct perspective on the game, but I also feel like I’m fighting a losing battle most of the time, since most people just like to get swept up in emotion or the mob mentality of stream chats. It’s normally easy to ignore this type of stuff, but in this case, the sad reality is that this perspective is actually harming KI.
Oh of course they exist, but I don’t think this thread will reach them… and if it did, I doubt there would be any convincing. For that reason, it feels like we’re arguing against nobody in this thread.
That’s not to say that it’s a bad topic or anything. There’s discussion to be had, but it could sadly just end up as an echo chamber.
I’m not sure that you’re acknowledging the context. “YOLO” is used in an entirely different manner in FGs than in generally accepted usage. It’s a lot easier than typing “full of brainless guessing and not refined”.
That said, generally accepted or even alternative usages of this term being a good or bad thing is another debate entirely. Definitely outside the context of this thread.
here’s my take, KI is a free bird in a lot of ways and this game shines its brightest when it embraces this moniker. when player choice is scaled down and frame by frame player decisions are removed for a more linear experience, isn’t the essence of what this game stands for. guessing a manual break isn’t really a guess. it’s an informed decision about a probability based on a defined system of rules. It might seem like a mess on top just because players try to catch other players slipp’n. aren’t all brawlers 50-50? am I gonna make that move safe by way of DP or aren’t I? almost every situation is 50-50. and that’s how its designed to be. ya there are some nasty ■■■ 1 chance breaks but those instances don’t define the game but more so the trait of the characters and not the game as a whole. if the devs ever curb guess breaks by implementing a limit on breakers this game is doomed. lol. take out the recaptures and we’ll talk about it but ya this game is like a upside down river. calm on the bottom and raging Rapids on the top.
But wait, you just used it twice…
Does that mean…you’re dead to you?
What if we’re all actually dead, and we’re just haunting this thread remembering the dreaded word that killed us all…
The yolo word?! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN
OK, serious note; Probably don’t have to worry about yolo as a phrase too much anymore. It’s not like it was in 2012 when everyone was taking it ultra seriously and saturating every market. The definition has changed to fit a mockery of that trend, as a say to describe inherent unintelligence and reckless abandonment of self preservation for the sake of a momentary high.
Or something. Point is, probably don’t need to worry too much. There are much worse catch phrases that have become internet phenomena.
Yeah, fair enough. The only reason I posted in this thread is because it’s irritated me for so long that sometimes you just need a place to vent about it.
It just sucks to see a game you like get overrun by false information and people hating. My hope is that people figure it out before they turn off the entire FGC from the game.
The reality is in Killer Instinct, some characters have really bad footsies and actually have really good frame data on their specials so they’re “footsie” tool is their special. For instance, I played Rico’s Omen a ft 10 last week with my Cinder and he was getting mad that I would shadow trail blazer while he had no meter. It’s a good pressure tool since I’m +4 on block and now have fame advantage to do lp,lp,mp into med fission on his orda wake up and not get hit by the projectile. Plus it helped me close the gap with all his random fireballs everywhere too. It’s all about knowing your character’s frame data.
Put into fighting games, it means just doing whatever because you want because and taking that one chance to do whatever comes to your mind because you feel like it. At least that’s what I think.
Yeah I love Killer Instinct for what it is. Every other fighting game feels the same to me, more or less.
I’ve never been a fan of Street Fighter, so I’m glad KI continues to stand on its’ own and embrace what makes it unique. It’s funny to see Capcom taking things from KI now and applying it to SF5. Before KI, Capcom has been doing the same old ■■■■ year after year. I guess it’s finally time to step their game up and take some chances with new ideas. Except Ryu, who still hasn’t evolved at all in the last 20 years.
What does calling a video game “You only live once” even mean, or supposed to mean? That’s the first time I’ve heard that phrase used to describe a tangible product… #■■■■■■■■■■■
Yolo just means doing something risky, that’s it. The term has become derogatory because it implies the person who did the move didn’t think about the consequences or it was provably a bad option to try at that point in the match. But the term is overused now, because people will call calculated, intelligent risks as yolo because they got hit by it.
I think that intersects with the definition of “Shenanigans” (in FG context)… I.E. “This is so obvious that they won’t possibly expect me to do this… so I’m doin’ it”.
but ya this game is like a upside down river. calm on the bottom and raging Rapids on the top.
There are much worse catch phrases that have become internet phenomena.