The COMMUNITY Tier List is HERE!

General Discussion
41

MU charts aren’t supposed to account for player skill. You assume the skill is equal, thus eliminating that variable.

2 Likes
42

I understand that, but it’s a variable that will ALWAYS BE THERE in any kind of play with actual players. You can’t and shouldn’t “eiminate it” because then you’re not always going to get accurate and REAL results. You have to look at every matchup on an individual basis AND include the players.

43

I think part of Galactic geek’s problem is that it says it is a community list, and not is not true. It is a list from the pro tournament players, and not the community. The KI community is at least 500 people, but the list was done by about 20 people.

The other problem people have is that the list is based on how certain people play certain characters. I am not saying they don’t know what they are doing, because they do. What some of us are saying is that it does not represent how alot of of play the characters.

Now, I am not saying that anyone did not do a great job with the list. I would bet that it took Paul and the others some time to do this, so I don’t want to disrespect them for it.

44

I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on it. Just treat it like any other tier list.

45

Yep gotcha. This seems pretty solid. Would love if you could include something like @Infilament guide (in regards to the character data on each facet of combat). This could help see which types of gameplay characters benefit more than others specifically. For example, if sabrewulf has a rushdown of 9, zoning of 0. And fulgore has a rushdown of 7 with zoning of 7. How does that affect the match up? It’s just an idea. If you don’t do it then I may do it. Just a thought to make this data more involved.

46

I do, which is to say, not at all.

I’ve always said that players must be a factor, and even then, so many factors must be included - their reflexes, their matchup and character knowledge, knowledge of general game mechanics, their ability to perform under pressure, their adaptability, their mental aptitude, how they’re feeling in the moment, as well as any outside factors that could serve as a distraction/interruption, etc.

47

It isn’t. It’s full of holes and guesswork at best.

1 Like
48

If you don’t like tier lists why come in a thread about them?Seems like you just love complaining for the sake of complaining.

4 Likes
49

So if one car had a max speed of 30mph and another had a max speed of 100mph, and I asked you which would win in a straight race your response would be “who’s driving? How well can the drivers perform under pressure?”

8 Likes
50

No man, and I’m sorry if you’re new to this, but MU charts don’t consider players or play styles or any of that. They consider tool sets.

Can we just agree to disagree?

If you wanted to aggregate and compare pro football strats would you poll a bunch of weekend flag football players or would you go straight to the pros?

Again, playstyles are irrelevant. You consider MUs by the toolsets the characters have.

2 Likes
51

Let me elaborate. As a community tier list. It seems solid. It’s not perfect by any stretch. If I were tasked with making a tier list (for mainly discussion purposes I mind you). It would be a hassle to get the varying ideas of the entire community. My guess is that paul went with the character SPECIALIST because they’d have the most experience on how their character interacts with the rest of the cast. This tier list was based on association of character tools that is trying to INCLUDE PLAYER SKILL. tbh you can nvr 100% account for player skill, but if you can get data from the ppl who have the most consistent results, then it can reflect the current metas tier for characters.

6 Likes
52

Because I want people to open their eyes. Even though it’s constantly said that tier lists are just opinions, there are people out there who will take it as blind fact, especially from the so-called popular experts. It’s, at best, used as a counter-picking tool, and everyone knows that getting counter-picked sucks. I want to see people pick who they want and try to win on their own merits based upon what they themselves know and have learned.[quote=“SithLordEDP, post:49, topic:13246, full:true”]

So if one car had a max speed of 30mph and another had a max speed of 100mph, and I asked you which would win in a straight race your response would be “who’s driving? How well can the drivers perform under pressure?”
[/quote]

That’s different because the speed of a car is an absolute fact. Tier list data isn’t. With that said, take the fastest car you can and put the best speed-racer in it on a straight track. Now take that same car and put the same driver in it on a shorter track with curves, angles, and elevations in it - the results will be different. Now take the same car on the 2nd track, and put the best driver at drifting in it, and see how he does. You CANNOT eliminate the human element.

53

Tool sets (moves, specials, normals) are absolute.

You’re way off base man. Just drop it, please.

6 Likes
54

So are the tools available to each character.

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55

Give me a character with only a few tools vs. a character with hundreds. The character with fewer tools can still win, because the PLAYER using the character with hundreds of tools isn’t going to be able to use ALL of them or even remember half of them to do them in the 1st place. At some point, it balances/averages out. Sure there will be outliers (for example, having a character with only 1 move vs. 1 with a normal amount of moves), but that’s illogical thinking because we know that that doesn’t happen.

Tier lists are missing the human element and always have been. You’re only trying to remove it for convenience.

56

It’s not about NUMBER of tools. That isn’t what determines the winning character.

You consider the human element, but the assumption is that both players are of equal skill level.

I’m happy to help you understand this better if you’re up for it, but let’s do it in DM.

3 Likes
57

I am not trying to start a fight. I guess i just dont understand how play style doesn’t matter, but tools do.

58

You want people to open their eyes and make their own choices,yet you have the nerve to tell them what they should and should not read or believe. That’s hilarious

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59

..and I’m simply saying that “equal skill level” DOES NOT EXIST. Otherwise, I don’t think I need to understand it, as I believe I already do, but sure.

60

Welcome to another episode of “Galactic Geek doesn’t approve, so here is 50 posts pointing out the obvious and not being satisfied.”

I have seen TONS of tier lists this week. And none of the threads survive long without some crazy argument ensuing (NOT just Geek. You know who you are). For those of you with no forum etiquette what-so-ever, here is how to have a discussion about tier lists:

  • Rule 1: EVERYONE KNOWS ITS OPINION-BASED. You dont need to say it, No one believes it is perfect, we are just sharing opinions. Leave the method used to make the list ALONE. (Or feel free to make your own.)

  • Rule 2: DISAGREEING AND PROVIDING OPINIONS IS FINE, DISCREDITING OTHER’S OPINIONS IS NOT. No one is perfect at the game, so we all know none of our opinions is 100% perfect. You dont need to point that out, flame an existing opinion, then offer no useful opinion of your own. You are not perfect either.

  • Rule 3: DONT USE AN EXPERIENCE THAT IS NOT YOUR OWN AS AN ARGUMENT. No one cares what YOU think about who the “pros” use, or how much they have won using a character. Their opinions have already been accounted for. Provide your own, and leave it at that.

9 Likes