Solving some match ups


#1

I have some difficults with specific match ups. Lets put Aria and Kan Ra for instance.
Even I can figure out punishing specials and trying to react to some moves and anticipate others, I’m having trouble with all the mix ups and set ups. Since I don’t main them and I don’t expect to reproduce all the things they do (some because I don’t understand them…) I need help to look for what I can do in this situations.
Knowing the frame data helps but still there’s a barrier I can’t break.

I try Gargos vs Kan Ra but still, I don’t get the MU well, so it’s not helping me at a higher level. Fulgore is another option, but I’m just not that good with him (even the bot helped me to beat a guy I’m sure I wouldn’t have touched with my main).

What should I look for against ppl with crazy set ups and vortex I have a lot of trouble reproducing in the lab?
PS: Yeap, I understand knowing what to break helps a lot, but they also aren’t that easy to break (Aria I’m looking at you)


#2

You’re almost certainly a much better player than me, so I don’t know that I could help you with this. But there are a couple things I would suggest.

The first is to record some replays and post them on here in the replay and analysis thread. Some of the bright lights on here will surely be able to tell you where the openings or weaknesses are. You could also go to the character sub-threads to ask players of those characters how to deal with them.

The other thing I might suggest, if you find yourself in one of those situations is just do random stuff that you wouldn’t normally do. It’s not a long term winning strategy but it can sometimes be immediately effective because most of those good setups and vortexes are dependent on you “behaving yourself,” meaning acting in the normal way a player of your character would. You want to make the other guy break his rhythm and say “who would do something like that?” Anything that decreases his ability to predict what you’re going to do is good. Like I said, it may not win, but you might find that you accidentally discover what works.


#3

Now that you mentioned that yesterday I was watching a stream of a Wulf guy that would go a little crazy against a Kan Ra. I don’t get exactly what he did (he jumped dive kick and chased that Ra a LOT) but it worked :joy: He guessbroke a lot too, but he is like Flash in the sense he is very good at that. Putting that together and confirming everything can make you get a win without a lot of trouble (that’s what happened when I used Fulgore vs a very good Kan Ra, he locked out and that was it, also he depended too much on one chances and with Fulgore I had ways to dodge his traps).

I’ll see if I can get a match and see what’s happening. I’ll use the recording function, because the matches files can get desync sometimes.

But but…We never played (have we?) :thinking: Also, Glacius is still a MU I have to put work :blush:


#4

Glacius vs wulf is a winnable matchup for wulf, but I am reasonably comfortable even as a Glacius player saying it is one of the worst matchups in the game. Glacius has lots of advantages over wulf that make it hard, and in general I don’t feel anything other than joy when I see a wulf player. But I have had some wulf players hand me my hat so I know there are solutions to the problem.


#5

I don’t think it’s really possible to lab this efficiently. I mean, I’m sure you can - but would it really help when a player is doing something already “crazy”? What makes it crazy is the absurdity and randomness. It may not do so much damage, but it catches you.

My biggest advice is patience and discipline. Blocking is sometimes the best option, wait for an opportunity to poke out of their pressure or simply cue in on patterns. Even if you don’t get a combo off from it, I have found that poking someone on what they thought was unbeatable pressure, establishes your ground. It tells the player, “not your turn, stop it” and they will try to do something differently, in that regard you forced them to respect you.

I’m sorry it’s not the best advice considering your already solid understanding of the mechanics, but work on breaking the opponent mentally. Understanding frame values definitely helps as you already know, but go about being patient as a Wulf.

Paul B is pretty good with discipline and gingerly poking opponents without it seeming aggressive. Maybe this video will help, considering the mixup style of Rash.


#6

Record a match where someone goes crazy with setups on you and ask us to explain what’s happening. It’s faster than trying to learn the character so you can reproduce the setups.

Some of the setups will come down to “you gotta just guess between 2 or 3 options” but we can identify what those options are, maybe give you tips about how to guess and what to do after you guess right.


#7

This wasn’t ShonyDepp, was it?


#8

Wulf vs Glacius hasn’t really changed much from S1. Wulf literally has to stay right next to Glay and if that Wulf is successful he can carve him a snow cone, but very few Glay players are foolish enough to let the dog in.

I remember feeling that way with the Sadira vs Glay MU, but with all of Glacius’ changes, he is quite dangerous to the spider queen.

Honestly I don’t know of any MU with Sadira that isn’t a battle, well save against most Spinals. I hardly fight really good ones anymore.


#9

Yeap,it was him xD

That’s a MU I check back from time to time. It’s not the worst but annoying, I wouldn’t say I enjoy it. It’s more like “oh,I’m doing a good job” and suddenly my whole work dissapears fast when Glay hits me,along with my lifebar.
I’m trying some stuff with Shago in the lab, I have no control of the character yet but…OMG! This character can be a nightmare for Glacius! I may learn that MU, heh.
I’ll see if I can have a pocket Shago. He seems pretty good in many matches where Wulf struggles.

Sure,when I get one I will upload it :slight_smile:

So true xD
I’ll rewatch those matches. I saw them live some time ahí.


#10

This is really true. None of Glacius’s zoning is relevant against Shago so it’s almost a completely different game. But a patient Glacius makes this match much more even and if you think your hard work with Sabrewulf disappears quickly then with Shago it’s gone in an instant. The damage differential is enormous. Definitely a far better matchup than Sabrewulf but, in my humble opinion, it’s still a 5-5 or a 6-4 at worst for Glacius. A lot of my matches against decent Shago players come down to who breaks better. Shago remains a noob killer though and he will wreck a reckless spamming Glacius every time.


#11

Just to add to my last post - the guys who have really mastered this matchup for Shago and are tough to beat arethe ones who don’t just rely on Shago’s random teleports and unpredictable side to side mixups, but are also able to use good spacing and the incredible normals that Shago shares with Jago to lock Glacius down. The spacing Shago wants in this matchup is not as close as Sabrewulf. If you are about trip distance away then his medium normals will all stuff cold shoulder, you can avoid puddle punch and Glacius’s few quick normals will whiff.

It’s a great example of the utility of grounded footsies in KI - even with two characters that are often considered to ignore this. If a Shago is jumping all over the place he can usually take my first life bar but as I build meter I just need one lockout to come back and win. That 80% of my Shago matches. But if the Shago player understands the spacing game, then I am really in trouble.


#12

Sadira vs. Shago is always a crazy match as both occupy the same area on the screen. In this case it is whoever does better air to air zoning.

Most of the Shagos I fight however, hit you with one or two fire balls and then run the rest of the match.


#13

Glacius doesn’t have this problem so much because tagging a running Shago with a single jumping HK is both easy and damaging enough to wreck the “chip and run” equation. Shago has to fight.


#14

Sadira doesn’t have such an option. :frowning:

The good Shagos are scary though and always seem to have an unlimited amount of Surge. O.O


#15

My advice against kan ra is…eat the swarms. Hes going to put you into positions where youll have to take the throw or the swarm. Just be prepared for flipout set ups and youll kind of have to read which throw Hes going to do. Instinct setups are a different beast. Vs aria I’m not sure there’s much wulf can do to deal with her nonsense.