Which is a big factor in the long run.
2 Likes
@RFGCAtsumachi f all Iâm gonna see are Sheiks, Marths, and Foxs I could care less about the skill in all since if I want to be entertained for sure. With the name like smash youâd expect there would be uniqe character representation but nope. It would seem pointless to have any character in the game at all if not for the fact their are fans of said characters in there.
When Fulgore first launched in S1 I had a â â â â â of a time trying to master him but all the batters and bruises worked out because heâs one of my best characters along side Riptor.
As for the tools no of course I would. If I knew what tools work Iâd use them. But Iâm not gonna ONLY rely on those tools because if I did at some point someoneâs gonna catch on and hit me by surprise. Just cause it good is no excuse for not diversifying your game plan. So itâs unwise to keep using the same move just because it âworksâ it doesnât always depending on who you are fighting. If a Thunder is good at keeping me in arms reach or if I happen to make a dumb mistake heâll have no issue in stomping me to the floor.
Iâd rather look at a guide like Infils to get an idea what that character is capable of and the characterâs weaknesses. Once thatâs done I take into consideration on what I can do as a whole and get creative.
Whether the guy Iâm having a staring contest at the verses screen is gonna beat me because of his âbetter characterâ is jack-crap if he canât put the money where his character is. High level or not.
On the communities case this is why I LOVE KI and itâs community. I consider KI currently the best fighting game because it not only has a diverse roster, but thereâs people who are willing to work well enough these characters to WIN these tournaments. Not just pick em because they are âda best guy in da gameâ etc.
Point is if people wanna look at some list that tells me whether or not my favorite character âsucksâ/is good, or telling me what character to use, thatâs fine on them. I however think itâs pointless and is uneeded. If anything we donât need âtier listsâ we need good developed guides like the one @Infilament made.
I think that is TRUELY what you need to look at if you wanna win a tournament. Learn the ins and outs and everything about a character that intrests you.
2 Likes
Once again, thatâs more than fine. You donât have to watch a tourney that only has those characters. The people that are actually playing though donât care about what your or mineâs opinion on tier lists are, theyâre playing to win.
I never said you had to solely rely on those tools. It would be in your characterâs best interest to know what tools you have available along with your general skill set as a player. If what youâre doing just âworksâ, why would you not always use it? Itâs on the opponent to catch onto what youâre doing, not you as a player. Thatâs how tier lists are even formed. Figuring out what character has answers to other characters and what each character can do about it.
The Infil guide is a great resource, but itâs not a resource that teaches you how to fight a character with a specific different character. Itâs always good to know what tools both you and the opponent have and know what you have to counter it.
Itâs fine if you donât think we need tier lists, but they have and will always will be a part of any fighting game community. Like the original point of this thread, the reason tier lists exist is because itâs human nature to categorize things into short form like this to get a better understanding of an overall picture. They arenât the end all be all that you think everyone else thinks they are, theyâre just there to help explain the game to people looking at it in a broad sense.
2 Likes
You and I are basically on the same page here. The difference is I donât need a tier list to tell me that stuff.
Also in hopes that my opponent DOESNâT catch on to what I am doing I always try to change things up a bit. Simple as that. Those guys who play to win can rely on that tier list. But I suggest they not be dissapointed if they lose.
Again, no one âreliesâ on a tier list. Itâs just providing them with useful information. No one goes to a tournament, picks the top tier, and then starts questioning why they lost if the tier list said the character was top tier.
3 Likes
Considering youâve pretty much said what @RFGCAtsumachi has said to me once already I donât think thereâs too much that can be said here.
I think we pretty much already have stated our thoughts about tier-lists. While I donât plan on changing my thoughts about it. As I had said once before: If people want to use a list as a guide to decide who they want as oppose to their own desires itâs fine.
Now would that mean people would use the character they want? of course.
Iâm mostly talking about the extremes generally, the ones whoâd much rather just win easily with no hard work or practice. Just who the lit says is the best guy in the game.
I canât really say too much other than that I think the idea of âTiersâ sounds a tad elitist and I donât like the possible attitudes it can bring in a fighting game community if it hasnât done so already in a particular game. So as a result I prefer to understand the roster through other means.
1 Like
I think most of you misunderstand the use of tier lists. They donât tell the players who to use, they canât be ârelied onâ, they will only lead to bad things if people decide to interpret them wrong.
Tier lists are usually made with matchups in mind, but they vary wildly in concept. The classic MU chart that leads to a basic tier list simply layers the chars from best to worst based on MU values (usually 0-10) with each other character in the roster.
They are merely informative, there is no relying on them, and they do have good uses. They help people become aware of which character should do best in an ideal situation of same skill level between players. Thatâs all.
Also, they have nothing to do, generally speaking, with ease of use for a character. Unless itâs a tier list that considers ease of use, and those are not the classic MU based tier lists at all, then how much someone has to work for a character to be effective has no influence over the results. Itâs common for top tier characters to be very hard to use or very technical. Itâs also common for top tier chars to be easy to use, or to be neither too complicated or too simple. No correlation there.
Again, I refer to typical MU based tier lists. You have all kinds of tier lists, that usually go in an X-Y graph instead of a numbered chart, which consider numerous different variables, from ease of use, to well rounded/polarized strengths and weaknesses, etc.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with tier lists, they simply represent additional information to those of us who wish to play the game competitively and reach a moderately high level.
PS: anyone under the impression that traditional tier lists work, in any way shape or form, to actually predict or influence the results of matches at a low or even low-intermediate level of play, is profoundly wrong.
2 Likes
Tier lists are an âaspirationalâ tool. Thereâs a few different philosophies that are described already in the thread by more experienced people than me. The usual intention is to say - at absolutely optimal play, what would the result of a matchup be? Then take all those matchups and rank the characters. Meaning there is never a perfect tier list and there never will be one. Itâs an idea, not an achievable thing.
Tier lists tend to be referenced by the pros to make decisions about whether they ought to develop a âpocketâ character as a counter pick for a specific purpose. So, they can certainly be useful to some people.
I think the issue is you get a ton of people who donât really know what optimal play is, and couldnât achieve it even if they tried, debating the merits of a particular tier list and then abusing the tier list to make excuses for why they donât win more. Thatâs why people get annoyed with them.
My rule of thumb is this - unless you have no aspects of your game that need substantial improvement, you really donât need to be looking at tier lists to help you decide. I know that improving my breaker % will do more to improve my game than simply picking a different character. So a tier list does very little for me.
As always, with any list people love to debate the minutae. But this isnât really a tool intended for a lot of people - and it is actively confusing for most players. At beginner and intermediate level there are characters who may appear Godlike because they require good reads, good habits or good execution to counter. Pros can always do these things so it doesnât factor into the tier list. So tier lists can sometimes seem completely outrageous to beginner and intermediate players - but thatâs because the tier list isnât built for you.
5 Likes
A lot of people who are misunderstanding tier lists here (those that argue against their existence) seem to not have much breadth of gaming experience. Personally, I donât pay much attention to them in KI because this is the most balanced fighting game I have ever played. But looking back at a lot of the other games I have played, youâd have to be pretty ignorant to not think that certain characters/factions/loadouts, etc. are strictly better than others. Someone made a good point about a character having an unblockable and unavoidable attack that did 50% damage, and the only person who could avoid it was himself. That is imbalance, but imbalance exists even in modern gaming. Sometimes game devs just donât care or donât know their own game well enough to balance things correctly. But the reason that example works is because if you can understand how a tier list is informative at that extreme, then it is merely a matter of magnitude to their usefulness when you start dialing back the imbalance.__
3 Likes
I just like to see who classifies as the top characters. Otherwise I donât care as Iâll always main Jago even if he gets DPâd with a massive nerf of some kind.
1 Like