So what's next for Raam?

Well the general discussion thread was already linked to saying it has setups and it’s linda nmoying to dig through 350 some posts for a setup or two so :sweat_smile:

also isn’t great how hard the thread derailed? Then again i wouldn’t expect change fast since raam’s more or less stagnated

You will find this interesting

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Out of all of the explanations provided, this was my favorite part. I was just thinking about the WHOLE picture instead of isolating things down to what you guys consider important again…

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Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but “unsafe” means “can be punished by your opponent”. It does not mean “will be punished by all opponents”. Bad players will let punish opportunities slip them by, but it doesn’t change the properties of the move.

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Just to summarize:
Negative: Can’t be punished, but your opponent has frame advantage, so if both of you press a button with equal frame data, he will win
Unsafe: Your move is very negative, so your opponent can punish it. How negative it was marks what punish can the opponent use. A -6 move would allow light punishes, while a -60 move could be punished with virtually anything.

Funny, this conversation comes in a Raam thread, the only character wich can punish some moves that are just negative for the rest of the characters(He can punish a -2 move with shadow dominance, something that nobody else can do)

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He’s also the character with a hideously easy to punish punishable light opener. Light decimation has for some reason 11 frames more recovery than the other strengths. It’s what causes that awkward pause that makes it really really clear that you’re in a punishable state no matter what level. i actually find it really frustrating because itd let him have a significantly better negative frame trap game like jagos windkicks where you have to distinguish the version based on the startup not he recovery. Then again people are already really good about just backdashing and no one uses heavy windkick randomly so i dunno. It just feels awful actually using light cominance. I get he’s a grappler so he’s not supposed to depend on fishing for openers with it but can’t its recovery be consistent with his other moves? its like spinal’s divekick pre buff it’s just clunky and annoying

But on shadow dominance, can he punish -1 moves? because it’s one of those things where if theyre not already in prejump it’ll grab them, and they can’t start jumping until theyve fully recovered so they’d get grabbed right?

Well, the reasoning behind that is limiting Raam acces to the combo system. He can combo any normal into L decimation, but only heavies into M decimation. The objective is only using it on hit confirms, never for preassure. I don’t use it unless I’m sure it will connect. I barely use M or L attacks to start combos. I prefer confirm it from a Heavy, and I use M and H decimation for setting up frame traps

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You’re not really supposed to use light stab unless you know for sure it’s gonna hit. Just play the “frame trap or blockstring or grab” game with the medium and heavy versions. It might seem counterintuitive to not be trying to open up a combo but that’s how raam rolls.

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I’ve never been an expert when it comes to frame data. At best, I know startup, active, and recovery frames and understand what that means when 1 move’s s/a/r frames are compared to that of another. So, I can see which of 2 moves starts up faster, which becomes active 1st, and which recovery is more punishable. However, the moment someone starts throwing positive and negatives into the mix, regardless of whether it’s on hit or block, then my my mind goes, “say what now!?” I’ve had multiple people try to explain it to me, and nobody has been successful enough to get it to really stick. When someone says such and such is -1 on block, for example, I can only guess at what that means number-wise (I know it happens during a block, of course) and can usually figure out if a move is safe/unsafe based upon how others talk about or react towards it.

Yes he can.

I think if light decimation was safe he’d be pretty silly. Right now in order to get a grounded combo, he has to fish with slower buttons or slower decimations, or else risk being punished. Probably how a grappler should be. He can still fish with light decimation if he has one bar, though (kryll cancel backdash).

I’m completely fine with it being -7, that’s understandable since he’s not really supposed to use it. It’s best used for punishes against stuff like shago slides to get into the combo system instead of grabbing and other decimations are better anyways.

My gripe is how its recovery is also significantly longer. It feels like an eternity watching raam slowly reel back giving your opponent an age to react. It feels weird complaining that a sixth of a second feels so long but it’s 50% slower to recover and it feels awful. I’ll take my opponent punishing me for making the wrong assumption that it would hit, but giving then what feels like forever to do so frustrates me a lot

I don’t want it safe, i want a change similar to what spinal got to his divekick without the change to actual frame advantage. so a reduction in both blockstun and recovery

This is what I’m talking about right here. I don’t know what this means! I don’t have context. What’s -7!? -7 to what!? Is that on hit or block or just in general? Is it safe!? Unsafe!? What’s being subtracted and from what? I DON’T KNOW!!! :weary:

Someone being positive or negative just refers to who recovers first, after all the block stun and recovery and all that has worn off. It is the “end result” of a blocked move. It is the most important number.

If my st.HK is -1 on block, that means after everything is said and done, I get control of my character back 1 frame after you. You get to act 1 frame first. If we press buttons that have the same startup, yours will win because it hits me 1 frame before mine can hit you.

But (outside of Raam’s shadow grab), no move starts UP in 1 frame. That means if I choose to just block, and you press your fast button that would beat everything, I will be able to successfully block.

But imagine a move that is -20 on block. That means you get to act 20 frames before I can. If you press a button that is faster than 20 frames of startup, you will hit me before I get control of my character back. You have “punished” me. There is nothing I can do to stop you from hitting me, because I don’t have control of my character.

For the most part, -5 is the threshold between something being unsafe and not, because everybody has a 5 frame light attack. There are times when -5 will be unpunishable because of range and stuff, but in general, -5 is where stuff starts being punished. Blocked DPs are wildly unsafe (usually in the -30 range), so you can press any button to punish them.

Something like Raam’s light decimation being -7 (is it really only -7? I thought it was -10 or something) means that you can press any 7 frame button (or faster) to get a guaranteed punish on Raam (so… that would mean all light attacks and most medium attacks). The “punishment” message will show up. Raam cannot avoid being hit.

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It’s either -7 or -9 I can’t remember, but it’s in the single digits. What makes it so easy to punish is that it has 33 frames of recovery while medium has 22 and heavy has 20. If it was -7/9 and had like 24 frames of recovery it’d probably feel less awful