So, about mods for KI PC release

This might not be a thing at all. Found this list just now - and it is very disconcerting.

Windows 10 store exclusive means it is built as a windows app which means:

  • No SLI/Crossfire,
  • Windows 10 store download is buggy,
  • No refund policy explained,
  • Vsync is always on,
  • Always borderless fullscreen,
  • Game files are protected,
  • Can’t launch it via the exe (So adding it as a non steam game will not work)
  • No fps/hardware monitor software works with it,
  • You need to take control of the folder as admin if you want access to the files
  • Mouse software which lets you create custom binds for each game doesn’t work
  • Say bye to using sweetfx and mods

EDIT: I’m not making this up or taking it from other sources. I’m part of the Closed BETA for Fable Legends and have Minecraft Windows 10 Edition. I’ve came across all of these issues

Closed betas are notorious for buggy systems and limited functionality, and have an incentive to lock content down, and why would they have a refund policy on a closed beta? Not that I can comment on the final state of the game, let alone how KI is going to turn out on PC, but the person you are quoting is an idiot.

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Swing and a miss. It isn’t about closed betas. This is how the windows app store is run.

Each app, including games is run in a Universal Windows App (Virtual machine) that is isolated from the rest of the machine more or less.

If the code isn’t signed, it isn’t run. If the code is modified, the signature doesn’t check out and isn’t run.

There are however a few misconceptions in the initial post as well though. SLI and crossfire can work to a degree, it just needs seperate profiles due to the exe being named drastically different. Overall those, apps that are only offered on the windows store are rather undesired compared to how they would be if they were offered on other market places.

“buggy downloads” is probably not a feature…

Other than that, anyone who thought they were going to let you mod KI just wasn’t thinking clearly.

EDIT: Also, this was completely predictable. All the thousands of people flooding this forum saying “give us the PC version, I will buy it day one!!!” But they don’t mean that. They mean “exactly the way we want it and running perfectly on my machine with every option I want, otherwise I’m going to say it’s a ‘terrible port’ and slag the hell out of it.”

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I believe a lot of these things were found on other games like Rise of the Tomb Raider.

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Correct. Other games of various types all suffer from these issues.

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I wouldn’t call having protected game files "suffering from issues."
So looking at the original post and the things in order…

  1. Not true
  2. Not really a thing
  3. You won’t get a refund. This is not a new thing. You don’t get refunds for Xbox digital downloads and only recently can you get a refund from Steam - even if the game doesn’t work at all.
  4. Vsync always on is not an “issue.”
  5. Borderless fullscreen is not an “issue.”
  6. File protection is not an “issue.”
  7. Can’t launch it via the exe. Many games, especially MMOs, MMORPGs, F2P games like Rising Thunder or Marvel Heroes only launch through a launcher and can’t be run through steam. This is at worst an inconvenience.
  8. No fps/hardware monitor software works with it. …Meh.
  9. Mouse software… If you want to play KI with a mouse you are a strange fellow indeed.
  10. No mods. Duh. Again, anyone who thought they were going to let you mod this game was not seeing straight.

This is a pretty nothing list as far as I can tell.

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@pollock @ColdSun I was commenting on the credibility (zero) of the evidence put forward by the OP’s source. How other games turned out doesn’t affect that. Every single one of their claims could turn out to be true, and said source would still be an idiot.

People from Microsoft Studios have definitely replied to questions about mods in interviews with the community. I’d hazard a guess that Adam Isgreen responded to an interview question from Zombie on the 8Bit Beatdown, but I certainly remember responses being given to questions about mods somewhere.

That’s different from an outright confirmation that they’re going to be providing official mod support and making their internal tools openly available, of course – they haven’t confirmed either way wrt that. But they’ve got far more information to reveal about the game before season 3 launch, so there’s no indication that they’re specifically holding back on this stuff.

Please, tell me more. (Whilst you should wholly take this as snark if you’re a mere gamer, if you’re a developer with a solid understanding of UWP then I’d honestly value gaining a better understanding of the platform.)

You’re not actually convinced that they’ve finally nailed this whole DRM thing, are you? I doubt the people circumventing Steam DRM are going to be hindered for long by whatever Microsoft is doing.

While this is not a big issue to a lot of us. People on that sub reddit and others who think Windows 10 is a privacy concern are stubborn and will probably avoid Windows 10 games. Secretly I think it’s just out of a rabid Steam fandboyism.

What exactly did you want to know about the apps platform? Since this is a public topic, I’ll keep it relatively easy to understand but still in-depth enough to promote discussion.

First and foremost, apps (in this case games like KI) are not actual Win32 programs, theyre bytecode virtual machines. What will this mean in the long run? Hard to say as I believe it’ll continue to evolve for a while. None the less, during this transition from Win32 programs to UWA, functionality and control to the users will be greatly reduced when you compare it to a full fledged win32 program.

To some degree, you could see the current implementation as similar to java jars/apps (old minecraft among others) and how it needed a java virtual machine to run it. Obviously mods were possible with these bytecode systems, so what’s the difference? Bytecode is not inherently signed and restricted. This UWA system however does currently require signed code and is far more restrictive. From what we’ve seen so far (and when Quantum Break comes out likely further confirmed) arbitrary unsigned code will remain incredibly challenging. Unsigned code cannot interact with “universal apps” which means 3rd party fixes, or mods, or whatever else you may want to use are no longer on the table. Okay so that’s hobbiest type stuff, is there other ramifications? A lot of overlays that handle the analysis of performance will likely have to be rewritten or fade away entirely. 3rd party integration by popular apps will be gone (mumble overlays), and I suppose the issue I care most about is if a developer doesn’t fix something or support a new OS down the road… well yeah.

Okay so unsigned vs signed, bytecode and all that. Is there anything to cover in this survey post (more indepth posts are possible later but this topic of discussion is occuring on multiple forums and keeps me pretty constrained). Some people like fullscreen. Currently the fullscreen solution that people on the windows app store have seen is borderless widescreen. Okay that’s cool for a lot of reasons. Alt tabbing is easier for one because the desktop stays present in memory while true fullscreen mode reduces how much it retains so that it can designate more resources to the fullscreen app. What does that mean? Well, depending on the circumstances, you’ll typically see better performance on the fullscreen app vs the borderless full windowed app… at the cost of alt tabbing (i prefer full screen as I don’t alt tab all that often). Additionally, things like AMD’s crossfire don’t currently work in borderless widescreen (unless using mantle which err is obviously not a choice for MS backed games).

So time for some more actual technical talk because fullscreen can be confusing. Starting with Direct3D 11.1, Microsoft started recommending developers to not use CreateSwapChain anymore to uhh well create a swap chain. Instead they wanted people to use CreateSwapChainForHwnd., etc etc. No big deal, just a suggestion. We don’t really need to get into too much on what SwapChains are for but you can read about them here: . What is important though, is Microsoft has decided to intentionally (as it’s mentioned as a note, not a bug) on their MSDN site: if a Windows Store app calls CreateSwapChain with fulls screen specified, it’ll intentionally fail. They don’t want you using fullscreen anymore. Period.

So why are they doing this? Well universal app systems are more portable (between windows phone, xbox, and PC). That’s a major plus and no one should be upset about it. It also gives the developer/publisher a lot more confidence in the environment that it is running. Major plus all around. Cheats will be harder to implement. A major win for gamers.

I suppose on a tangent, I’m wondering what their primary goal is. To push people to Windows 10 or to Push people to the MS store. It seems that they’re going for both at the same time which is likely to cause far more pushback. If they want gamers to jump to Win10 for these games, then put it on Steam as regular apps (ideally) or at least as containers on steam that then use the App store system. It’ll increase the eyeballs. If their goal is to get people to use the store, then I wonder why they didn’t start with win32 apps and then once people got into the ecosystem started pushing more on the locked runtimes shrug.

And no, I’m convinced the system to some degree will be circumvented, but ultimately it will still be a far larger inconvience than other DRM (which this is only partially a focus of the app store). Personally though, if you have a legit OS from MS (in this case it’d be win10) and a legit copy of a game, is it worth invoking the wrath of the licencer to circumvent their protection? Probably not.

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Is this specific to low or extremely high end PCs? I’ve never had a problem with Vsync causing any issues with input delay.

Why would people buy a game blindly day one? I don’t understand. What’s the point, it will run like аss, ruin the experience for you and your opponents. Of course people say that they will buy day one with a caveat, it’s always a good idea to wait for reviews when you buy PC and console games both.

There’s a big jump between “runs like ■■■” and “no mods and no steam support.” Frankly, @Rhscf I give you a lot of credit because you have been continuously involved in this forum. But I believe that a lot of the positive response to the PC version was motivated by exactly the wrong kind of fanboyism. I find it very, very difficult to believe that a community of people who can deal with running the original KI arcade games on an arcade emulator should be stymied by the types of things listed in the OP to this thread - provided they actually really wanted to play the game in the first place. Yeah, if the game runs at 30FPS and is non- functional then I wouldn’t expect people to hop on board. But “I can’t get above 60 fps on my SLI? Pfffft. Bad Port, ■■■■ those guys” just means someone is not a fan of the game.

Make no mistake, I am growing concerned about the PC version - since we have heard nothing about it. But if the game runs comparably to the X1 version I still fully expect to see a lot of belly aching from the PC community. Some of this will be from dedicated trolls who just want any excuse, but some of it will be from people who are looking for an excuse to beg off since they were just pretending to want the game in the first place.

While I don’t have a PC and am an artist and would love the opportunity to help design mods for the great characters in KI,

I’d love to be part of a design team for those who are modding to make new skins for the characters!

Please contact me if interested. I really want to make costumes for all the females especially.

I have a few great ideas for Orchid and Kim especially

Well, no denying that, there are people like this who will want their games running 1080@60 on the highest settings on an ancient сraptop. But this is just a minority of idiots that is ultimately present in every fanbase or on every platform. General consensus is what usually pretty fair. Arkham Knight deserved all the negativity people threw at it, so does XCOM 2 that is optimized surprisingly poorly for a PC exclusive. On the other hand, Mad Max and Shadow of Mordor are praised as being stellar ports. This is what matters, not individual opinions.

I didn’t create this thread because I think people will not buy the PC version because of the lack of mods or I wanted to dissuade people from buing it, no. It’s just, I remember a lot of people wanted mod support to have some cool new costumes or maybe redone retro outfits. Hеll, Max was one of those people that was super hyped up about it. I wanted people to know that might not happen, because of the way Windows Store works.

The biggest concern for many in W10/Store exclusivity, because the motions MS go through now are all too familiar, this was the way the pushed Vista and GFWL, the worst abominations MS has ever spawned. People don’t have enough trust in the company and it’s understandable, decades of broken promises. Is this the time when they are finally serious about PC? History will tell, they will have to regain trust before people start hopping on the W10 exclusivity train.

So yeah, many people are just acting cautious, not entitled.

Its a fair response. The problem with GFWL was that it just didn’t work. But I think a lot of the flack that PC users send toward MS is for trying to sell them software that they can’t hack, pirate, mod, etc. That’s not really a crime against the community. I think you can be serious about PC without wanting to allow people to mod or otherwise “crack” your game.


-No steam controller
-no g-sync/freesync
-No ini editing

But the real Problem: This game will not be playable in 5-10 years. See GFWL, they just shut down the servers and people can’t download and play the games they paid for : Halo 2, Viva Pinata… gone forever!
And now they open a new store with even more restrictions… its not going to work.
I will play the game on PC anyways but I don’t understand why they do this. Its sad to know that all the games released on this platform will be lost if they don’t feel like supporting it anymore…

They scrapped GFWL, because it sucked donkey balls, not because it had restrictions. Mod support and things like that don’t matter as much, when your games don’t work or your progress is constantly getting erased. If they actually come up with something half-decent, people will use it, although begrudgingly.
MS must show their commitment, then people will suport then, which means MS won’t have a reason to shut down their services. They have to make the first step and people will eventually change their mind.

One of the big reasons people want to play on PC are choice and less restrictions. If they plan to start a successful service on PC they have to compete with other stores like steam, origin, gog. Right now they are not even trying…
They can’t just do their own thing and hope people will eventually jump on board (remember the Xbox One reveal). They need to listen to customer feedback and do something people actually want…

But right now it’s just speculation, I’m sure we will hear more on the MS press briefing on the 25th.

It’s hard to me to imagine competition, when MS store will only sell MS games. Same with Origin. People have no choice in this matter, they are forced to buy it from the only place that sells it. GOG and Steam? Yeah, that’s competing platforms. MS Store and Steam? Not so much.