I have to say, this is my favorite change to the game so far. It’s finally possible to use Shadow Counters to counter pressure without having memorized every block string your opponent has so you know you won’t get stuffed out of it. This is so, so good. I’ve probably used more successful shadow counters in the first three weeks of S3 than I did all last year. This is so key in some otherwise very challenging matchups.
If you are like me, and not used to thinking about Shadow Counters all that much during matches, you owe it to yourself to revisit them for S3. So much improved.
I’ve also noticed the great improvement. But like you said I never used to even bother with them in seasons 1 and 2. What’s the rule of thumb with them? Sometimes I get it perfect but other times I get that ppft and am just standing there ready to eat a full combo. I usually try to do the counter on the 2nd from the last hit. Is this correct or is it when it’s just hitting or something. If that makes any sense.
You’re doing it right. The “pvvt” sound means you did it and he didn’t actually hit you again. So there’s no counter. This still happens a lot of you try to counter a naked shadow move and your opponent instinct cancels, and it can happen when he is applying pressure and then goes for a reset or a jump/throw instead of continuing his block string.
But what I’m not seeing is hitting shadow counter, activating it and then getting stuffed out of it by the continued pressure etc. I’m having it used a lot more against me too, which is great because it really changes the way you approach applying pressure. So much better. The only thing I don’t understand is why they didn’t change this earlier.
EDIT: Because I’m able to use it more, I’m experimenting with it more and finding things that may well have been effective in the past that I just never tried because I pretty much saved my counters for blocked shadow moves. Things like shadow countering a Glacius hail/shatter - which works if your characters shadow counter can make it all the way to Glacius. Neat stuff.
I think there are some bugs around it, currently.
Kim Wu’s shadow counter moves her backwards, and is not a forward-moving move, meaning you will often correctly shadow counter an attack and then stand there whiffing, just waiting for the punish.
Shadow Counters right now are happening not only on block, but sometimes mid combo while the defender is actually being hit, meaning your combo goes from being successful into a complete reversal and punish, rather than the punish coming after successful blocks. I think this is a bug where the person is trying to break mediums, but comes out with a Shadow Counter instead.
They’re also catching single-hit moves with what looks like weird timing, too. I’m not sure if that’s an intended change that I’m not understanding, or a bug.
They are definitely useful, and I feel like the quicker frames on SCs makes it easier to do, but I think there are some holes which need patching lol.
Yea I have noticed this too. I was being combed and went for a break and it shadow countered.
I actually really don’t like the sound of this.
The KI that I want to play is one where pressure means that I get to do 5 consecutive frame traps, and force you to either guess which one is going to be the mixup instead, or attempt to predict where the reversal window is going to be so you can attempt to DP out, or make a similar prediction to correctly time a shadow counter. If we’re now in a world where nearly the only prerequisites for landing a successful shadow counter are that (1) you’re in blockstun, and (2) I’m not baiting with something other than a strike, then that’s pretty depressing to me.
But that said, we’re more than a week into season 3, and these worries have been spoken about a few times without the endtimes for pressure ever really materializing, and it shouldn’t be hard to get a sense of the reality of the situation by just recording a bunch of pressure strings in the lab and making random shadow counter attempts to see how they pan out. Guess I’ll try that soon.
I would love to join this thread and agree, but i’m playing Kim Wu at the mo lol.
They feel a bit too lenient to me right now. I’m getting a lot of “not sure if intentionally shadow countered my frame trap, or mistimed shadow countering the previous special move” moments.
I’m enjoying the fact that they can punish jabs.
While I did play Aganos, and he and I believe only Sadira had fast enough Shadow Counters to enable a punishment for a jab (in season 2), I find I should be rewarded if I read the situation correctly. To me, this enhances the mind game more as people will now look for baiting this out more frequently, which I will adore greatly because it’s putting the control back to the user. You aren’t getting punished because your Shadow Counter isn’t fast enough
I’m not even sure how to respond to this. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to play that way.
KI has an emphasis on two way interactions throughout the game and too often in the past, characters with good frame traps just cruise on “autopilot” throwing out these strings with little or no fear of punishment - especially from characters without good reversals or quick punish options. The idea that a Shadow Counter, which uses meter, might help you escape this kind of pressure and cause the offensive player to have to think about what they are doing is very appealing to me.
If you have good frame traps of course you will want your opponent to have to make a guess on where your mixup will come, but as the offensive players you still have lots of options and cutting down on ambiguous guesses in the game seems like a good thing to me.
Obviously it depends on what move you are talking about, but I think I’m okay with this. Because KI has so many relatively safe specials and characters who are able to pursue their offense after being blocked I think giving those characters some actual risk is not a bad thing.
Where I am seeing the biggest difference in the use of SCs is in jump in situations where people now know they can reliably counter the follow up to a blocked jump in without eating a bunch of jabs. This really prevents the kind of mindless “I know what I will do now, cross up into block strings and then when I feel like I might be finished with my block strings just jump over them again while they are in block stun” type of play. I used to see this a lot as Glacius and now I see it a lot as Tusk, and frankly there isn’t much you can do about it besides shadow counter. Attempts to anti-air usually come out to late and whiff or get beaten (or both). For some characters like Shago and Rash, the ability to counter their incessant pressure is really needed. Remembering that this is a resource draining counter.
I have mixed feelings about it, because on one hand I’m not sure if they intended it to work that way, and a jab or single hit normal isn’t something I would generally consider “unsafe.” Parries, Deflect and Hisako’s counter are specifically built to be a counter to a jab/single hit, but I feel like Shadow Counters are supposed to be used mid block string.
Maybe that’s just me, though.
Yeah, but you still can’t shadow counter a single jab. It has to be part of a block string, it’s just now, unlike before, if you shadow counter someone mashing jab you aren’t going to get knocked out of it by their third jab.
Shadow Counters are the only way I’ve been able to escape pressure from some characters during lockdown. It’s a godsend.
Its great when used correctly, but there are also more times than good ones that its used accidentally and changes the outcome of the match! Ive seen it happen mid combo when it should have been a medium combo breaker and it gave them a shadow counter and they got a full punish on me. NOT COOL!
Kiets is aware of this and they are working to get it corrected.
Yes its easier and if they can keep it easy but in the right time and not allow the accidental BS ones…Im all for it…otherwise…change it back ,
And this quick to return to block/ short hit stop has to go. Ive never seen no many combos just all of a sudden go from hitting my opponent to all of a sudden they are blocking mid combo! How is that possible?
If you use a lot of manuals you know what I’m talking about…but it also happens during Auto doubles.
I think it has something to do with …they obviously shortened the Hit stop, which they confirmed they dialed it back a point or 2, and the change to were if you whiff a manual you will now get an Auto double instead of nothing (dropped combo).
I could be wrong, but the combination of these 2 changes has led to less hit stun, quicker return to block, and less hit stun mid combo break which ends up giving them a SHADOW COUNTER.
I trust IG is going to get it right and back to being tight and solid…but if they can not…I vote for changing it all back to the way it was end of S2.