Please Nerf Cold Shoulder Knock Back

Game Suggestions & Feedback
42

So what is the recovery if it whiffs? Because, as you said, those are some pretty specific distances. Glacius coming out of cold shoulder into recovery, immediately in the grill of nearly any other character (maybe not Gargos or Kan Ra) is a really bad place for him to be.

Just to clarify, I never said you were going to jump a cold shoulder on reaction, but much like Glacius’s wakeup DP which you can neutral jump in anticipation, you can also avoid cold shoulder with an anticipatory jump. Even if you don’t clear it you take a small air hit rather than a combo starter.

43

Why are you up at 530am on a Sunday Andy? :sob:

44

Lol. Because I’m in Beijing.

4 Likes
45

Lol. Fair enough…on my way to Singapore myself and had an early flight is why I was up :-p

MumblemumbleGlaciuscoldshouldermumblemble

3 Likes
46

@Infilament I’m sorry that I expressed concerns about a character that was very much so buffed last patch, so that maybe the one bit of the buff causing issues, not with just a few characters but something that he can do against anyone, mindlessly might I add, and get away scott free. If Glay Cold shoulders in from a comfortable space, he will still be just that. At a comfortable space. Even Thunder’s mediums don’t reach him to even have him block. Once you know the spacing, you can go nuts with cold shoulder pressure setups. They can’t press buttons, they get puddle punched. They can jump back sure, but that gives Glay free hail, or they can neutral jump but he can still follow up on that too. Glay can do whatever he wants off cold shoulder. If they make the spacing less forgiving on the pushback so you can actually punish it properly unless the Glay is more aware of their spacing is all I’m asking. I’ve been picking up Glay since I started this post. If I try and play him Full screen traditional zoning, people find ways in eventually. I can keep them out a good long time but the moment they get close enough, I go into the cold shoulder stuff and the tide of the match completely changes. It’s 80% Glay. I’m not even good with him, and the people I’ve played all get frustrated by it too. Not much without meter even slows it down, and I can avoid their shadows anyways. You bring up buffs/nerfs but as much as it might be “painful” or whatever to read these, no one is forcing you to stay here and keep reading if it’s upsetting to you. I’ve also asked in this thread, if anyone can offer advice on how to punish this or deal with it for the majority of the cast, we could probably get rid of this thread. I haven’t seen a single bit of advice on that that isn’t, jump it or whatever. For the most part, it’s in relative agreement that cold shoulder gives Glay a way to bully/force his way in when he so chooses. It isn’t like I haven’t labbed this either, I picked every character against not even properly spaced cold shoulders and there are very few instances you have options aside from block. Jumping gives Glay too much of an advantage. You’re best option is to react to what he does after the follow up of Cold shoulder, which ends up sometimes being another cold shoulder.

Cold shoulder has always been mostly just an annoying move, but now as Storm stated, it’s with his different options and actually having a true dp make it even more frustrating. I understand shoulder being unpunishable off perfect spacing, or with hail coverage and risking the DP reversal much like Wind Kick or Blade dash. That’s all normal fine and dandy stuff, and no one would really have any complaints there. Right now you don’t even need that. It’s just extra insult to injury to have them. It’s a tempo reset too. Make them block a cold shoulder, then they have to react to what you do because they have no options. You don’t need to shadow cancel, instinct cancel or anything. Cold shoulder is safe. -5 is safe, feels awkward to say that…

47

There is an easy way to see if a move/character has a OP move. Do you notice that you are fighting a certain character more after a patch. I get that the number might improve a little after a patch, but if it goes up to high to fast, then there is a problem. Out of 20 matches I would fight about 3-5 Glacius. Now it is around 5-9 of them per 20 matches. Now this is on Ranked, where people are most likely to use a trick character to increase their stats.

He is supposed to be a zoner, so his rushing should not give him that good of an advantage.

48

Wasnt the only buff to Glacius the last patch his lance advantage though? Shoulder has been pretty much untouched since season one but back then you could at least lab ways to stuff follow up puddle punch attempts. Now not so much since one of them is invincible.

1 Like
49

You guys should git gud and adapt.

50

Focusing too much on what “should” be in the game rather than what is in the game is a surefire way to get blown up in ranked. I’m definitely with infil on this, I’m sick of these topics.

6 Likes
51

All of his normals got better on block, lance got better on block, puddle punch heavy became invincible. I’m aware that Cold Shoulder hasn’t been changed, but, due to the other changes, Cold Shoulder got really good. Remember when they gave Thunder a DP and they immediately took it away because of how it amplified other moves? This one isn’t as drastic but, it’s still there. I think at one point they changed the startup or travel distance of cold shoulder, I can’t remember when that was. Late S2 or Early S3 about my best guess.

@DEClimax Then don’t read it? Let us discuss with those who want to discuss. That’s what a forum is here for… It isn’t like every dang thing we say gets implemented into the game… I’ll say it a third time, unless you’re here to shed some light on how everyone in the cast can easily deal with this cold shoulder stuff, or anything of any relevance really, then you don’t have to attend the discussion. That type of comment isn’t needed. Go start another thread for off topic called, I hate posts about discussions, then discuss why you hate discussions.

1 Like
52

Every time you press a button, you get DPed? [quote=“SullenMosquito, post:46, topic:20763”]
You bring up buffs/nerfs but as much as it might be “painful” or whatever to read these, no one is forcing you to stay here and keep reading if it’s upsetting to you.
[/quote]

You know what, you’re absolutely correct. Time to check out.

1 Like
53

I guess sense 10-15 don’t have a problem, then none of us should. :unamused:

I guess we need to wait for the “right player” to have a problem, once that happens the fourm will be full of threads like this.

@BiyemAssi237 far as git good goes, I will GET GOOD when apeople start taking the time to spell it like a human being. So I have plenty of time to improve.

It is crap like that that stops the community from growing. Just because we don’t spend 100’s to go to tournaments and play, or even play competitively doesn’t mean our ideas on the game should not be heard or considered. If you want the community to become larger then you need to realize that not every single casual player is going to spend 5+ hours in a lab trying to figure out a work around for some move that became stronger when other changes happened.

Yes I do think that the cold shoulder move needed to be looked at and possibly changed.

54

glacius main? lol

55

If Glacius is doing cold shoulder into puddle punch, just wait for the puddle punch and then punish it.

Glacius has been played as a rushdown character since season 1, when FIlthyRIch (who worked on the game) played a pretty fantastic rushdown Glacius. [quote=“SullenMosquito, post:51, topic:20763”]
Then don’t read it? Let us discuss with those who want to discuss
[/quote]
People are allowed to point out that a topic is worn out and not worth discussing. Like all attempts to silence dissent in a thread this isn’t okay. The problem is no one is allowed to counter your arguments. You just respond by saying cold shoulder doesn’t make sense, is “brain dead” and should be nerfed. Because reasons. I can pull up this exact same thread talking about Thunders flipout. How it’s insane that a character with such great damage has a flip out, yadda yadda yadda. It all amounts to “this move annoys me and I don’t want to deal with it. Please nerf.”

I think it’s pretty fair to point out that this is tiresome.

3 Likes
56

Yes, but these same casual people will not stop once Glacius’s cold shoulder is nerfed, because KI is absolutely full of abusive, strong moves that you need practice to deal with. This is just the current flavor of the week.

This strategy has been in the game for 3 years more or less. Frankly, I don’t think the DP change has influenced this strategy nearly as much as some people seem to think; if Glacius did cold shoulder into DP before, you were getting hit in the vast majority of cases AND for a full combo before. And because early S3 Glacius had to take more risks to cancel into hail or shatter due to the projectile change, they actually probably canceled into shoulder more than they do now. The changes to Glacius in the last patch (-4 lance, in particular) don’t factor into cold shoulder at all… in fact, you would largely prefer he cancels, so that you never have to deal with -4 lance, basically ignoring one of Glacius’s nicer buffs last patch.

And you don’t need 5 hours of lab time to deal with it. You block it, then either press a button to challenge an approach, or bait a DP. There, that’s a strategy anyone can employ and while it won’t be perfect, it should be enough for the casual players that you mention.

If the topic was titled “Having a hard time dealing with Glacius shoulder, any suggestions?” then this topic would have been great. But because the title is “Please Nerf Could Shoulder Knock Back”, and the entire first post is trying to outline reasons why the move is too good and must be nerfed, the tone has been set from the very beginning that this is not a “let’s discuss strategy” post. So, for some people to suggest we should be talking about the strategy of dealing with the move is disingenuous; the post is focused on nerfing, so our responses will be following suit.

9 Likes
57

I’d like to update my position on this topic. Previously I said I’d like to see either (a) the knockback be reduced, as suggested by the OP; or (b) medium shoulder become -4 on block. Now I’m ruling out option (a) and throwing my support wholly behind option (b).

There’s part of me that wants all of the medium windkick-alikes to become unsafe on block in the wake of the Jago nerf, because that was Jago’s thing. It was his most iconic and character-defining move, it was certainly the only potent threat he could impose on the midscreen with any regularity, and I’ve never been convinced (even on a holistic investigation of character strengths and weaknesses) that characters like Fulgore and Glacius deserve to have access to a very similar interaction if Jago doesn’t. Part of me is waiting for the other shoe to drop in a subsequent patch.

But more than anything else, I want IG to stop making characters weaker, I want people to stop begging for nerfs and getting them. I want people to play and respect KI for the potent experiment it is, rather than keeping on getting their sensibilities from other games validated by rebalancing decisions here. The last thing I want to see is a bunch of season 4 commentators a year from now talking about how the dirt we’re (rightly) telling you to deal with now “was absurd, you should be thankful that IG removed that broken ■■■■ and made the game more reasonable,” like how commentators now talk about the dirt from seasons 1 and 2.

That said, I don’t like that as simple an interaction as blocking a windkick-alike leads to a weird scramble. That’s fake depth for the sake of it, and it makes balance discussions awkward because SonicDolphin will insist that the move is not safe whilst the OP here will (imo more rightly) insist that it’s basically safe. Either make it punishable or make it safe. (Preferably make it safe, because I want the nerfs to end.)

58

I think there’s something to be said for “pretty negative but far away” as an on-block quality. There are many SF moves like this and it tends to be this interesting middle ground between “you are safe, but negative and must block or reversal” and “you are definitely punishable from all ranges”. I think it adds cool interactions (Wulf and Raam can punish, maybe Arbiter cannot) and lets people with good spacings be more plus (rewards footsies, despite claims that the game has none, and scienced setups that let Cold Shoulder hit meaty).

I’m with you on the “let’s cool it with nerfs for a bit” but I dunno if “make it point blank and then either safe or unsafe” is necessarily right for every move.

(Also, for the record, while I agree with your stance on the wind kick nerf, I do think some things in S2 deserved nerfs and I don’t think S3’s dirt is super sterile compared to past seasons… KI S3 is still a pretty grimy game)

1 Like
59

It’s -5 right now :neutral_face:

1 Like
60

Alright, I’ll relay a match I had from last night. I was Gargos vs a Glacius. He, without hail, off the start of the fight, I blocked a jump Mk and he cold shouldered me 3 times on block straight to the corner. I tried a Cr Mp once to stuff and it whiffed. What are my options? I’ve been throwing out this happens, spacing this spacing that, normals whiff, and what people have left me with is, jump on reaction, take the smaller hit or block. If those are my only options, that’s nuts. That’s why I’m stressing it so much, I’ve labbed I don’t even know how much, and 85-90% of the time Glay can just do whatever he wants off it. So yes, it is brain dead. I can cold shoulder without remorse, I don’t have to think about anything other than, if I’m ice lance range, I’m safe. I used the thunder comparison because, they changed a move, and it broke a character, I also iterated that Glay isn’t as extreme, but it’s still annoying. There are plenty of people in agreement with strong points on the matter as well. The primary responses I’m getting here are, this thread is worthless, don’t discuss this, blah blah waste of time, jump or block yolo git gud…

I’m aware, it was pretty impressive, but now the game has evolved since S1, we no longer have unbreakable Sadira or unblockable Wulf. Simply put, while Glay isn’t insanely good up in your face, he isn’t bad at it. His Corner is top notch, and he has distance combo’s as well as excellent zoning. His only downside is that he is relatively slow. But even that can be overlooked with how fast cold shoulder moves him. So when he is keeping you out, he is ok being slow, since you’re not heading in on him that fast either. But on the other side of the coin you can’t run away from him either. He is very solid all around, and with that I think it’s a little much. High damage, good mobility, full screen punishes, I don’t know how people still rate him so low. Is that a better consensus? His weakness is being point blank, but he has a Dp now.

As stated, due to the recent changes he’s gotten, and what I’ve been discovering, I’ve already picked him up and started practicing. So most of what I have in this thread, is both what I’ve done and faced and people visibly get frustrated at cold shoulder, verbally and through XBL message too. So I’m not just spewing a random, nerf this nerf that for no reason. People struggle with cold shoulder, and I’m taking advantage of it right now.

61

It would be nice if you could post the video.

Cold shoulder is especially valuable against Gargos because it beats his portal punch so you are much more likely than many others to see this.

I’m out of town so I can’t lab anything up, butmaybe someone else can help you out.