My Issues With Cinder

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Firstly id like to apologise if this is in the wrong section so i would ask a Moderator to move it if necessary.

MY ISSUES WITH CINDER.

Since Cinder wa first released he has always been a character that has given me trouble, so rather than Complain and ask for Nerfs i decided to do two things.

  1. Ask Cinder Players to Help me learn the MU
  2. Take Cinder to the Labs and try to figure out a solution to the things Cinder Players are using to beat me.

FIRED UP DP.

I find this move is very obnoxoius to deal with and these are my reasons why . .

The window to punish is too small and i feel as though it should have more recovery. the reason i say this is because there’s not enough time for me to humanly react and go from blocking to DP before the pillar comes out and connects for a counter hit. Even if I anticipate it. it feels wrong why do I have to work so hard to punish a reversal that I baited, the risk/reward is heavily skewed in Cinders favour.

Here’s a factual example why Cinders DP is not in line with the rest of the cast.

If cinder does his fired up DP and hits you it can lead up to 40% ( Breakable ) damage although the trail blazer juggles can be hard to break unless your looking for a particular strength. The window you have to punish his reversal is very small and if you are off by a small margin you will get counter hit by the Pillar and potentially loose up to 40%

Jago or any other character in the game doesn’t have awkward to punish reversals.

  • Vs Fulgore watch for the air laser If you block that you can FULL COMBO PUNISH.

  • Vs thunder watch out for the stomp If you block that you can FULL COMBO PUNISH.

  • Vs Maya dash under before the daggers and you can FULL COMBO PUNISH.

See the trend? Every Reversal in the game is either full combo punishable once you figure out its quirks These reversals have quirks to them but they are entirely punishable and the window to punish isn’t extremely strict, like it is with Cinder.
It’s a reversal it shouldn’t be hard to punish if it’s baited.

Now I’ve seen videos of Jago players low profiling with cr MK and follow up with a DP to hit cinder before the Pillar hits.

You can use safe jumps off throws to be able to block his DP in time but you still have the issue of the flame Pillar the timing is very tight for you as a player to input a DP before you are punished.

Heres the problem with this method. The issue is that with those set ups is your not reacting your playing pre-emptively. It’s not all the time your going to be in a situation where your doing a safe jump off a sweep/throws. My point being the timing is very tight to the point you have to ask yourself is it worth it?

And Ultimately a DP isn’t an answer to a baited DP a DP that is baited should be full combo punishable as is the case with the rest of the cast as i mentioned earlier. if i were to ask for anything it would be that the Flame Pillar is removed and saved for instinct only.

Before i stared this post i had a bunch of issues with Cinders Trail Blazer but I’ve come up with some possible solutions thanks to some time in the lab and a few tips from some high level players.

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If you’re going to punish his DP, punish it before the Pillar. Not after. The Pillar makes it safe.
Here is a video of me learning how to punish his DP with no prior knowledge of how to with Fulgore and Jago. My discovery should be universal.

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He knows how to punish it, he’s saying the window to punish it before the pillar is too small which forces you to preemptively prepare for your punish as opposed to reacting. I’m not sure if I agree or disagree, on one hand I’ve pretty much given up trying to punish it with a DP since I always miss the timing, instead I just mash light. On the other hand Cinder already has way too many easily interruptible moves.

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That’s exactly what I’m saying you hit the nail on the head.

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Thabkyou for the video but I already know how to punish it the problem is the window is too small and your having to punish play pre-emptively rather than react.

The most consistent punish is a Jab before the pillar but in the grand scheme of things is that a real punish for a DP. Even so the damage you gain off it is miniscule compared to the damage he can potentially get without spending meter.

The risk reward is unbalanced with this move.

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The window is a lot larger than you think, just go feel it out in the lab, for the most part Cinder players are predictable when they are going to Fire up DP and once you get that, punishing it is relatively easy. I only posted this video because this is me learning how to punish it reliably from no knowledge whatsoever. I play casually I only recently made it to Killer Tier. Standing LP or LK will always punish it.

Also that was an old video from the previous forums that I made for his DP. Just feel it out, you’ll see that there is more time than you think to punish it. Otherwise just block it and prepare for the mixup.

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Keep in mind that cinders DP is much more punishable most of the time. He can only do this once every 9 seconds and the point of it is to be safe.

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I think if you can reliably react to Maya’s DP and dash forward, you can react to Cinder’s (once every 8 seconds) DP and do your character specific punish for it. Thunder and Fulgore can change the timing on your punish, which makes it a lot more obnoxious to deal with than just having to react fairly quickly, which is wholly in your control. Even if you block the pillar, Cinder is -3 (so some characters with DPs can punish straight up), and Cinder has to give up control to your pressure or else DP again, which is a pretty meeeeh strategy.

I think Trailblazer is one of those moves that looks way, way, way better than it actually is. In a game full of super broken special moves, I think (grounded) Trailblazer is one of the worst in the game. :worried: Loses to everything, has no safe followups, every character has a universal answer to it. If you can use it as a whiff punishing tool, or catch someone thinking about something else (because the move is pretty fast), that should be its main use, but even then it’s pretty hard to get away with. As a pressure tool it’s super bad, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see this move buffed, not nerfed, in Season 3.

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You just answered your own question.

You said a jab works. Now hit confirm that jab into a full combo. That’s it.

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You can’t hit confirm the jab into a full combo it’s not possible to full convo punish him after the fired up DP

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It confirms into a juggle combo, he isn’t grounded for the jab punish.

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I’d figure the solution to such an issue would be to jab, and then hit confirm into something that recaptures.

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It is very, very possible (just character dependent).

Lots of characters can projectile invincible through the pillar and catch Cinder grounded, or do some other trickery (Spinal power devour canceled into shadow Boneshaker, etc).

There are only a few characters that need to hit Cinder out of the air, and those characters tend to still have something pretty meaningful (Jago DP into more DPs or instinct cancel to fireball heal, Sadira launcher to air combos, etc).

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This pretty much.

This

Cinder’s trailblazer is not exactly good for straiht up attacking. even a liht punch from you can pop him out of it. His main mode of getting in has no priority over anything. Shadow trailblazer is even less useful. It doesn’t go that much further than normal trailblazer and also lacks the versatility.

If you can keep calm and relax you’ll have a cinder player that will mess up and can potentionally be hurt bad if you know what to do.

long story short, don’t get so upset about not being able to get a free high damage hit. other characters like Sadira can us her down medium kick attack (or was it heavy?) to whack any DP attempts to punish her web dagger move. by doing this you have far less of a chance of punishing her web-dagger attack after blocking.

The bottom line is, just keep mashing LP, use it as a way to deter your opponent and make him think twice about using fire-flash DP on you at least maybe so he doesn’t rely on it so much. You really don’t have to hit full combo punish just do it enough to get the Cinder player to not rely on it too much. Most will stop easily if they don’t have the life to afford even a second attempt.

Adding more recovery to even after performin the fire-up version will make it nearly impossible for Cinder to get his combos going.

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