I really like how in KI you get to change your combos, you put your seal on them. But in SF 5 I see the same combo over and over again. Not saying they are easier to perform…However I do like watching their reactions and reads, but KI has dinamic combos so you play it totally different, it’s more personal. Despite enjoying the neutral game I must accept KI can be played in a different way and this also rely in the players style.
And hit confirm super it’s kind of boring. I know it’s that way, THAT’S what forces you to play different too. You have to be very careful when there’s no chance to get rid of that outrageous damage.
BTW a friend told me he went back to MK because he doesn’t like to change his combos all the time. He wants a combo on paper and repeat it without bigger changes and getting repeteadly broken.
Oh, KOF feels like bumblebees all around me. I’ll stick to KI I’m not willing to go back to that. I may play a little of SFV though, but I don’t feel it’s my game, I just want to expand my gameplay a bit regarding to neutral. But I’m not good in games I don’t feel attracted too.
Main reason I stopped playing USF4.
For example, I could only distinguish Infil’s and Tokido’s Akuma at some point in time because everyone did the exact same tricks; very boring to watch.
Now, what if someone does punish it properly? Like I normally will do heavy target combo into recap and that is all unbreakable or I do heavy->heavy->light->shadow fission. The opponent now has to take the risk of trying to break which could lead into BIG damage if one locks out early enough for them to go into heavy auto->light linker or into as many shadows as they can. I feel like that is a pretty good reward, but not as good as a counter breaker of course. If they do get the break then whichever character with the better neutral is put in advantage on flipout(unless they are flipping into a corner).
Understandable. I do feel like Wulf’s potential of crazy mix-ups/resets were scary enough to begin with, but just had to work for it a bit more. The damage buff is scary and if that is put on top of the possible PD changes we are getting then I’m honestly picking up a 2nd character to handle Wulf b/c I just cannot do it with Cinder without a huge uphill battle. I’d actually prefer vsing Jago!
And that sucks. I don’t get why I open up a streamer with 50+ viewers that are playing KI and just trashing the game. It’s unnecessary and not needed in this community. Why can’t they be a bit more logical about the situation. Maybe…idk…try and lab why this kind of stuff is and work around it? I know some stuff in this game might not be fun to deal with, but finding your best options is all you can really do!
…Cuz he’s a cripple…right? (I’m joking ppl he’s a good friend)
I’m saying that some of the tournaments I’ve watched I’ve cringed at how the gameplay turned out due to poor knowledge of certain characters. I’d prefer to just watch the good players go at it since rarely any of these new names aren fun to watch.
Any PRO player can obviously fix the whole issue by learning to handle it themselves
And that is what happens. Us players need to adapt to some of the crap EVEN if we don’t like it. I hear plenty of complaints on Jago, Fulgore, heck even Maya having the ability to full screen hit confirm with her daggers??, Gargos not being fun to play against. Even if these things are in game we have to accept them and deal with it.
Last time I watched a top 8 I’d see moves go unpunished, really wack risks that really didn’t make any sense and got punished, moves being dropped(but I understand that since I’ve had nerves completely destroy me in tournament), and less of a neutral and just more frustration(Diamond/Thunders getting away with murder). Give me some of my good friends playing so I can see a really solid match!
You can’t discredit the fact that they are playing the best characters. They are good players, but the benefit of playing those characters can help too. Sleep bounces between characters that are the most dumb (S2 Kan-Ra, Early S3 Arbiter, Gargos, Maya?) b/c it frustrates people and it is just a pain in the ■■■ to deal with. He’s still a good players though. He’s just taking the opportunity to learn characters that will also help him win.
There are no unreactables. A player must learn how to react to situations.
Ex) Spinal gets a hard knockdown and sets up an overhead skull. Hold crouching block right before it hits to cover low and stand up to make the skull hit and go from there. Anything else after is a guess.
I can agree that Jago’s frame advantage needs to be toned down jsut a bit, but playing it patient and waiting is the best option.
Well, if that ever happens, let me know and we can do a proper analysis!
Serious answer: I have done many different analyses of this over the last year on these forums, and even if the most optimal punish situation happens 100% of the time (and we are very, very far away from that), then it is no worse than a blocked DP but with 4x the offensive reward, and yet DPs are seen (rightly so) as a crucial part of defense in fighting games due to the mental conditioning they force on the opponent. “You thought it was your turn, but it actually wasn’t, and now you will second-guess your offense for the next 10 knockdowns giving me leeway to escape in other ways, plus you might get frustrated and play more impatient neutral, giving me more openings.” This is valuable in fighting games! Now imagine that with the same conditioning, but 60% damage + your choice of whatever knockdown/screen positioning you want on top of that.
I have watched thousands of games of KI at all skill levels between hundreds of different opponents (and played the game myself as well, of course), and I feel very confident in saying that proper counter breaker punishes, even at the highest level, are the exception rather than the norm. Feel free to take a look at my Youtube analysis of Bass vs Thompson, two fantastic players, and watch my analysis of how they don’t punish counter breakers properly, because it’s very hard in a fast-paced KI match, especially if counter breakers are used at surprising moments.
Eh… I sort of have to. Look, no one sits around saying “Daigo’s only good because he plays Ryu.” I would never deny that Jago and Fulgore are strong characters, but the reason people bring that up is only to try to undermine the players. It’s “I’m just as good as they are, but I have a weaker character.” Boo hoo. If the characters are that strong then everyone would play them. They aren’t so strong that they take good players and make them great. No one else is coming close to Nicky or Thompson playing those characters. We all have the same frame datanwhen we play Fulgor that Nicky does with the same pip cancels and teleports and DPs. But I don’t see anyone else winning with Fulgore. Nicky isn’t winning because if Fulgore. And Thompson isn’t winning because of Jago. He’s actually playing the combo game better than everyone else. And Sleep isn’t just playing “dumb” characters. He’s picking tricky characters and wagering that his understanding of the matchup is going to be better than his opponent’s. Nobody came close to Sleep’s S2 Kan Ra and everyone said “Kan Ra’s just dumb!” So they nerfed Kan Ra and Sleep wins the KI cup with Arbiter and Gargos and you say those characters are dumb too. So what’s fair? Nobody can pick Arbiter, Jago, Kan Ra, Fulgore or Gargos. ■■■■■■■■■ These aren’t “good” players being carried by OP characters. They’re great players. Period.
I’ve definitely watched you’re stuff and the streams you’ve had. I absolutely love the work you’ve put into this community and I can’t discredit you on your work. You definitely know more about it than I and I can take your word for it. Conditioning definitely has done that to me and has torn me apart in game.
Like I said, I’m not discrediting their ability to play this game well. I’m saying that the characters being stronger than the cast also helps. I’d rather not put out names, but other top players have said that these characters need to be changed. You CANNOT deny that S2 Kan Ra was dumb when used properly (just like early Arbiter). Trying to make the point that “Nobody else can do it!” doesn’t help since 95% of this community is still learning.
Did you see how many Chun Li’s were in Capcom Cup?
Jago is crazy plus. You’re telling me I have to hold st. mk -> st. mk -> st. mk -> cr. mk and still be scared to press a button? At least there’s several good Jago players besides Thompson (Bass, Dayton, Raven) I can practice with to understand how to deal with such a tough MU. The fact that you think that no one else comes close to Thompson shows the lack of knowledge in the community.
Fulgore has crazy ambiguity with teleports. When I play Nicky, he knows what to do against Cinder. Sit back full screen and throw fireballs at different speeds -> heavy laser -> teleport. If he decides to cyber dash in…I HAVE TO HOLD IT b/c it is plus. I’ve even joked with Nicky about him only having 0 or plus frames lmao. It’s ridiculous! This MU? I can’t learn as well b/c nobody plays Fulgore as well as Nicky(hhmm maybe Cupcake idk). However, I can try and sit in lab and understand the character.
Sleep has good knowledge of the game, but nobody can deny the fact the characters he has played people have HATED even at the highest level.
In the end, you may know how to deal with a character even if it is bullshit, but you also need to be able to adapt TO THE PLAYER.
I don’t care if people play these characters. I have forced myself to learn these MUs with Cinder even if they are tough, but it’s just not fun at times either. There’s plenty of trash players that use these characters and I can body them FREEEEEE b/c they have no clue what they are doing. It’s just when they are actually used correctly(like they should be played) when the dirt shows and the real struggle begins.
I accept that I got outplayed and lost, but my frustration still stands with how that character is at said point in time.
I have a tough time with Wulf, but I’m not throwing a fit about Wulf. His damage is a bit scarier now and Cinder doesn’t do well, but I accept it and work with what I got. I will complain about other characters b/c they do need some changes. I’m not mad at the player, I’m just frustrated with some of the changes/mechanics and I’ve played this game since release!
My love for this game far outweighs your salt towards this post where, if you have read the comments, I have posted extremely long replies to everyone to have an actual discussion.
I guess the main thing I wanted to communicate is not that it’s impossible for players to punish counter breakers with the maximal punish, because definitely it is. I’ve done it in matches and I’ve seen you do it on Bass’s rough sets as well, and it’s something we should all look to improve in our play. The main point is to assess the average punish damage. For example, what is the average punish damage on a DP in SFV? It’s the same as the maximal punish, because you can expect the full crush counter 99.9% of the time from even intermediate players. You can basically never DP in that game and expect to not get hit for the max punish.
But I dunno, when watching KI, there just isn’t anywhere near the same level of consistency. Even punishing with a medium button into opener, which is probably the highest damage punish I’ve seen “reliably”, isn’t a good punish, because in KI a ton of the damage comes from the first and second hits (first hit gets 200% damage bonus, second hit is barely scaled). So, if you do fierce xx shadow, or in Cinder’s case some 3rd degree thingy, that is a full 10% more than medium into non-shadow opener, and that’s just before the break point… not counting the fact that you get to start the combo with a manual and have low KV and have ender level at 2 and etc etc. In practice I would think the value of starting with fierce xx shadow instead of medium xx non-shadow is, like, 25% damage or higher.
Anyway, I hope the entire community starts punishing counter breakers maximally, because then the game becomes way more interesting! But until then, the risk/reward for counter breakers is through the roof for the offense. You pay 8% (throw punish) for a chance at 60% + lasting mental damage? Sign me up. If the community would stop feeling so unnecessarily frustrated with giving up temporary control of the match for a calculated risk, we’d be a lot better off.
Another thing to add is also MU dependent. My risk/reward for a counter breaker against a character that outdamages me seems to be far greater than one with lesser damage. Especially when they punish the counter break and set up the vortex.
I like to take the risks, but players I practice with a lot like Bass, Dayton, Water, Raven will normally punish that to the fullest extent and that terrifies me as a player since I have to work so hard to obtain the burnout and try to rush for the 2nd opening to get actual damage.
At least, that is how I see it. I do see not so optimal punishes at times too like you said.
No reason to get mad if I’m actually having discussions and listening to other viewpoints as well. I’m not begging for nerfs or complaining at the devs. (I wouldn’t mind some changes tho)
If you think I need to get good then my GT is my name so inv me and run the set FT5 If not then please tone down on your sodium intake and try to have a constructive conversation with the community. Thanks.
I’m pointing at Jago/Fulgore mainly and this isn’t coming from just me. This includes other players too that know this game quite well. We have learnt how to deal with it, but this doesn’t rid of our frustration towards it. Even LCD was talking about it earlier in conversation.
I don’t think Jago should be so crazy positive with his pressure and have so much control when he gets in. Kind of difficult with Fulgore too.
But Hey I’m a low effort complainer even though Keits has already mentioned that Fulgore is getting a big change in the future. I’m talking about things that should be considered and talked about and even the developers have responded with said updates. Bass wasn’t happy with Spinal nerfs and spoke out loud about it. What happened in a recent patch? Spinal got buffed.
Like I said, I’ll be waiting for my match if I need to “git gud”. I’d rather show my effort put into this game than try and reason with someone in a forum lmao.
And people like you will complain until the cows come home and you still won’t be satisfied with it. Please don’t bring up LCD. He got Wu buffed to the moon with all of his complaints and he dropped her like a hot brick.
Winning or losing a match against me doesn’t prove anything. It just diverts the conversation. If you already think you’re good, then just get better. Stop wishing for crap and do something.
Calm your self. You cant just show up to the thread with your nasty attitude and stir it into chaos. All of us hear was having a nice civilized conversation why do you want to ruin it? Your getting salty for no reason no one said you had to read this thread so can you please escort yourself out.
If not then please tone down on your sodium intake and try to have a constructive conversation with the community. Thanks.