Well, I do believe in the other 2 too - people who believe in only skill and others who believe in only luck. We’ve got proof of both here in this discussion already. I’m a believer in both.
No, that’s not at all it. I was more invested in the scenario you laid out vs. Gargos that demonstrated at the very least a significant lack of understanding in the matchup, and that could imply a similar lack of understanding of the game in a greater context. Cuz that Gargos scenario you laid out was just wrong, like flat out WRONG, but you didn’t wanna hear it, you wanted to be right, whether or not that meant staying free to Gargos. For the good of any innocent onlookers, I had to correct the disgusting misinformation you were spewing, cuz that’s the sort of crap that is truly bad for the game - not some random dude on a forum rudely telling people they are wrong and then helping them navigate a problem matchup.
Also, I kinda doubt you and Paul are one another’s spirit animals. You’re getting a little “Wolverine’s Photo” and it’s sorta weird. Please dial it back.
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Didn’t you main Jago? If he’s so good, why did you drop him?
Topic of conversation:
“Lost interest in Most KI tournaments”
I believe the interest is lost because gimmicks take up too much of the watching experience, and take away time from the hype moments. Momentum based characters make comebacks much less likely, and a larger than normal amount of life in recent tournaments comes from full-screen gimmicks. Normals are being used less than usual, and most wins seem to come from exploits, recent balance changes, or unfamiliarity with new characters.
(none of the things above are so EXTREME that the competitive scene is in a any danger, and obviously do not happen 100% of the time, they are just becoming prevalent enough that they are sparking worry in some people.)
Counter argument to that:
All of those things are part of the game, and are just as fair as any other part of the game, so its the fault of the viewer for not understanding that.
My counter-point:
You are correct, but saying it doesnt help the situation at all. Telling the viewers to “get used to it” instead of giving them what they want will push them away. A good solution to help both sides, is to put the focus back on the hype situations, while not diminishing the usefulness of the “unhype” tools when used CREATIVELY. Viewers love creativity.
Thats the end of me. Regardless of who dances over my corpse after i’m gone, i will not post here again. So, have fun bois…
(if for some reason, you actually show interest in what i said, but you dont understand what i meant [probably from my bad use of words], i will CLARIFY, but thats really it.)
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Then how can you say poker is “make reads, rely on luck only when you are 51% or more to win the pot”?
It’s about as far of a description from how modern poker works (or even poker 10-15 years ago) as is humanly possible.
For example, there are many reasons you will commit chips knowing you are a dog to win the pot. They include, but are not limited to, pot odds in large pots, multi-way pots where are you looking to squeeze, establishing table image, intentionally taking a risk with the intent of tilting someone for more reward in the future (especially in cash games), and many more. How do you even play hands where you have a draw? A draw is exactly a hand where you are a statistical dog, but have an opportunity to make a lot of money with correct analysis of pot odds and other things. You can’t just fold every draw you get, right?
To be honest, I’m half-interested in accepting your offer and taking a straightforward line that beats this proposed style of play. I will likely lose (because it’s an easy line to outplay if you take risk), but then I would want to catalog the game we play and analyze all the situations where you made decisions exactly opposite this line of thinking. But that sounds like a lot of work so meh.
Oops, didn’t see you were done responding to the thread, guess I shouldn’t have bothered typing that. Oh well.
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Apologies if I gave cause for offense - it certainly wasn’t my intent. My point was more that each of the people on the forums chooses when and how to engage.
There has certainly been less-than-productive language in here, but myself and a few others have tried to respond in as constructive a manner as possible. We’ve challenged assertions we believe to be incorrect or misguided, but we’ve been very respectful about having the conversation. If someone chooses to ignore what I say and respond instead to the juiciest, most confrontational post they can find in here, then that’s their prerogative. I simply don’t see the value in asking for someone to engage in a way they clearly don’t want to.
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No no i was not offended in the slightest. See this is the problem with text only forums people miss interpret what others say and then things kind spiral out of controll. I’m glad you came out and apologize even though it wasn’t needed since it allowed for us to clarify each other’s points.
On Topic:
I will have to say I found the recent tournaments very stale up until combo klash san Antonio.
While some of the new faces are lacking in fundementals and skill. They show huge potential and I feel like the ki scene will pickup again and be super hype by the time the world cup rolls around. (If not this year’s then next year’s if the scene stays alive)
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Skimmed through this thread, is somebody really complaining about luck in games? Jesus christ, it’s in all games and always will be. The saying goes “■■■■ happens”, and it will. You can’t ever have a fighting game without luck, nor can you ever remove it because of the variables that come with human interaction
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You know what’s funny? The OP of this thread and the following posts ended up making me go into matches thinking about optimal play and surprisingly, I was able to actually implement optimal play efficiently! I punished the first whiffed counter breaker I saw with st.HP xx shadow on reaction and was able to do it consistently. This was also compounded with extending combos longer than I would normally do over the past few months and man, I can’t tell you how much more fun I’m honestly having with the game. I was never saddened/upset/whatever about playing the game and the reason I played the short combo game is because I main Aganos so his stuff is a tiny bit easier to break than other characters. It’s like my enjoyment went from 100% to 200%. Capitalizing on lockout with heavies and shadows 99% of the time to make sure it hurts is even more goosebump inducing than just playing the short combo game.
The reason I’m saying all of this is because I’m just a low level punk in the game. Granted, I’m not new to fighters but I’ll still admit I’m “new” to KI even after playing since Season 1. If I’m able to get actual results from just going into a match thinking about it, then I’d be more than happy to see the actual pro’s that don’t go for it implement into their gameplay and raise the skill roof of top tourney play tremendously.
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This, this is the attitude.
HP into Shadow pulverize deals INSANE damage.
Given the actual status of this topic, I have a question:
Why people points “the random stuff” or “gimmick characters” instead of “not playing the optimal game, using all the tools”?
Why people believe that Gargos makes more damage to the game than not using CBs, not using heavy autodoubles out of lockouts, or overal not taking risks and favor “conservative” gampeplay in a game that focus itself into being in the offense and favors assuming risks?
When played in all it’s glory, KI is marvelous to watch. Playing it like a SF game is just… It’s like using tank for going to work. Yeah, it can be used for that objective, but it’s not for what it was designed!
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For the longest I was doing St.HK xx Shadow ND for punishes. I finally went into the lab one day before the talks of optimizing punishes in any form came up and found I was getting weaker punished overall. This was something that just came to mind one day to look up. I’ve always liked living in the training room and I think it’d do a lot of players good to just try going into training mode and sit there for an hour or two a day and just play around and let your mind explore. It’s how I’ve found out a lot of punishes for things over the years in all games. KI makes it even easier with the frame data and hit(hurt)boxes readily available.
Because unfortunately everyone always likes to assume that they play optimally 100% of the time. It’s easier to look at something you don’t have control over (your opponent, their character, etc.) than to reflect back on yourself. It’s easier to have a mindset of, “Goddang man, that’s stupid! Why is that in the game?!” than it is to think, “Man, I don’t understand WHY that tactic works. Let me open up training mode real quick and recreate the situation!”. Like when Gargos first came out, I won the first few matches against him and when I ran into something I couldn’t deal with, I immediately went to the training room to test things like:
-
What can Aganos do to control Gargos from staying in the air all day? (Jump HP, Jump Peacemaker normals, H Natural Disaster after a few of his jumps, Shadow Payload Assault the second he leaves the ground)
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What can Aganos do to stop Portal Punch spam (Medium Payload Assault can be shot fast enough in between light Portal Punches to hit and punish him from fullscreen xx Shadow Natural Disaster after confirming the hit, Shadow Ruin on reaction -which takes a lot of practice but it’s doable!-)
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What can Aganos do to stop minions (Light Payload Assault not only stops the minions, but also prevents Portal Punch from fullscreen, Shadow Ruin Despicable Me through 4 walls)
And so on. If I’m able to accomplish stuff like this in the first week of when characters show up that are tricky, then how is it that other people that are actually talented still complaining about Gargos?
I find KI to be THE most fascinating current fighting game to both watch and play at a casual level in this current generation. To me, no other game comes close to what this game offers in terms of sheer content and mechanics. This game, more than any other currently running fg, sinks it’s claws into the players psyche and will bring to light every single little flaw or gem of brilliance from the players. I believe that this game creates salt from players so harshly is because deep down, they realize this too and they then have to come face to face with reality that they aren’t as great as they may think they are and it scares them. I’m no expert, hell, I just got bopped by @llPaulBll 's Mira the other day and it was embarrising on my end. The thing I took away from the match though was not anger or jealousy that I don’t play Mira, what I reveled in was the fact that there’s still so much for me to learn in this game! It was amazing seeing myself get torn to shreds like that and hopefully next time I get a chance, I want to do better than I did in that set! I want to be able to eventually stand toe-to-toe with the greats and getting continuously beat by things is a solid metric of where I stand as a player and gives me something to strive for!
Or I can just complain that Jago and Fulgore completely negate the entire game lol
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Great thread. And in response to your question like 200 posts ago, Spinal will be the new character complained about after Jago and Fulgore are toned down. But LOL@Mira - if Paul uncorks her and runs a tournament, we would be able to open a salt mine.
@RFGCAtsumachi - Wow, I actually relax reading your posts. Stick around!
@Dayv0 - I would love to drive a tank to work. So I have a Nissan Cube, which is the next best thing.
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