Lost Interest In Most KI Tournaments

[MDMMORNING]

I dunno man, I just saw the same people doing the same randomyolojumpingbuttonhubbub I’ve been watching at offlines all season, and last season. Pretty damn lame if you ask me. [kappa]

On the real, there was a match wherein PixelBeat literally didn’t pop TJ’s FIRST INSX - he saved the whole thing for Last Breath. KI is dead. Next match he didn’t save it and made TJ look real real good. KI is Lazarus.

Can’t cherry pick evidence of KI’s death based on learning curves and an unwillingness to let the games competitive audience grow, man.

[EctopicILLusion]

Maybe it will grow, maybe it won’t. I hope it continues and these players get their head out of their ■■■ and realize they have a lot of stuff to improve on.

Raven, Bass, Water, Kalypso played AMAZING.

Pixel could’ve actually used instinct, not woke up knee, and other things and Thrash could’ve not locked out so often, but these are just problems that a player can work on. Charlieboy should’ve been more patient, not throw out buttons when he shouldn’t, and know the range of his moves.

Of course some of this can be associated with nerves.

The thing is, the tournaments where these players come out to is worth watching. There’s a select amount of players I want to watch and the rest is zzzzzz. Hopefully we get to see more of this hype stuff. I know for a fact NEC & KI World Cup will be hype just from the people attending.

Also, I expect this game to be much better come patch 3.6.

I have hope. I really do.

[Infilament]

@ZDhome

To use the example of poker again…

You get good by making reads, and ONLY using luck when you are sure the odds are at least 51% in your favor.

have you played a single hand of poker in your life

[Infilament]

@Fnrslvr

[KI gives its] players more decision points, thus more opportunities to demonstrate that the quality of their decision-making. It should be a boon for advanced players – a chance to demonstrate their more comprehensive knowledge of the breadth of scenarios in the match, to participate more fully in more decisions due to their superior mental stamina, and to smooth out variance with the greater volume of decision points and the higher frequency with which they get to show off their sheer superior decision-making skill

@Fnrslvr

The greater the density of decision-points in a match (such as in KI’s combo system), the more the game starts to resemble something like chess with its staggering possibility space.

Yay, someone who gets it.

When you force people to make many, many decisions in short order, variance gets diminished, and good decision making (which is a skill) comes through strongly.

I’m really puzzled by people who get upset at the vast amount of decisions you get to make in KI. If you are a good player, that’s just more opportunity for you to dunk your opponent hard, because good players a) have good mental stamina for rapid decision making, b) can aggregate decisions both he and his opponent are making into an overall strategy more quickly than others, c) can assess risk/reward properly, even as it fluctuates during the state of a hectic match, and d) are able to make quality decisions in many aspects of the fight (neutral, wakeup, combo game, mixups, etc), not just one.

If you watch or play KI with any regularity at all, you will know just how much poor decision making goes on, even with our best players. But rather than take it as an opportunity to get better at a super fun skill, many of them just complain that someone else is out-decision-making them.

Sucks to suck.

[Sasuke99I]

“When I read the forums, I look like my profile picture.”-Infil

[ShinHisako]

I’ve stopped watching KI tourney’s. Mostly out of lack on interest in KI. Haven’t really played after Shadow Lords. The mode isn’t for me and besides Kim Wu and Mira, this season really didn’t bring anything for me. That’s overlooking the face issues Kim has and how tough Mira’s playstyle is. The flipouts, the new 50/50’s it introduced really soured the game for me.

Saw todays stream and was reminded KI Cup will happen some time soon. Maybe Ill watch it but no one tweets about KI tourney’s anymore so I don’t watch them or have knowledge of when they drop.

[Infilament]

@EctopicILLusion

The thing is, the tournaments where these players come out to is worth watching. There’s a select amount of players I want to watch and the rest is zzzzzz.

This is fighting games, though. It happens with Street Fighter just as much; I will watch (and have watched) lots of high-level SFV tourneys, but watching mid-level players is a boring slogfest that I can’t turn away from fast enough. All you see is how poorly they are playing, even if they are better than me. It’s not fun to watch. SF fans are blessed because tons of the world’s best talent are playing their game, and there are 80 events a year where all the Japanese travel, so you can just flip on a CapcomFighters stream and see the world’s best players on any given day. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that “only the tournaments where these players come out to is worth watching” doesn’t apply to SF as well.

You know how you can make a game a little bit more interesting at the mid level? Create a bunch of crazy hard optimization problems and a ton of character diversity so that no two matches look alike, and wacky things will happen even if the players are bad. I’d say KI actually does this just about as well as any other fighting game. SFV, on the other hand, is kind of bad at this I think. All combos look the same (even mid-level players will never drop their character’s combos), so the slop in the game comes from poorly optimized punishes and letting his opponent get away with stuff, like lack of anti-air and checks on pressure. Basically the more frustrating things that can happen when watching poor players play. And while this is in every game (KI included), it is the only thing you see in mid-level SFV play because the rest of the game is so constricted and straightforward. You are pretty unlikely to see a combo drop leading to a scramble, or a cool mixup or reset.

[EctopicILLusion]

I understand that. It’s just turned me away from watching and I want to help contribute to viewer count. I’m glad I had a blast watching Kombo Klash though. I can’t wait for 3.6 and I’ll continue supporting even though I’m frustrated.

[Dayv0]

I really can’t understand all the “random” complains.

Without taking in consideration Omen’s Rashakuken(who nobody is mentioning as an issue, because is not, and I’m going to ignore), NOTHING in this game is random
Videogames are very specific and limited spaces. Everything works the same way, every time. You can’t change the rules each character have to follow, even if the rules they follow are different from the others.

Every character has a determined walkspeed, dashspeed, frame data, jump arc… They can’t change that. Sadira or Gargos could double jump, but that is also determined by the game. You can’t, by any way, perform a double jump with Sadira which makes her drop directly to the ground, instead of making her hop upwards.

Everything is fixed. Gargos minions doesn’t attack on random, they attack after a fixed amount of time.

CB’s works if you perform them one frame earlier or the same frame than the breaker attempt.

Feck, even Omen’s rashakuken are not random. They follow fixed patterns, with random chances of getting one of them, but even then, the projectiles have a fixed route.

Due all this, this fixed rules, EVERYTHING can be used in your favor or against you in all fairness.

I don’t know what people means by “random strategies”. What does this means? Being unpredictable? Of course being unpredictable is GOOD. You could just take the “safe” route, but sometimes, you have to take risks. The adversion that some people seem to have against any way of taking risks really puzzles me. Taking risks it’s part of KI DNA. High risk high reward is common in this game. Trying to avoid risk is just not playing optimal gameplay.

Also, having a correct read means nothing if you don’t have it ON TIME. I could see Shago performing a fullscreen slide, I SEE HIM BEFORE HITTING ME, I try to block low, but if he hits me it means that I WASN’T FAST ENOUGH. I got the read, but I wasn’t faster enough: I don’t deserve a reward. Rewards comes from both read AND timing, not only reads itselfs.

It’s funny, along all my life, most pro players were the “experts” of their games. They knew how to optimize their gameplay. They understood their games. KI seems to have more people who understands the game among his “no pro” players than its “pro players”. Few exceptions here, but there are some

[BigBadAndy]

I think people have to keep in mind the pyramid here too. For every @infilament who watches a high level match and fully understands it, there’s a dozen guys like me who have a middling understanding - enough to recognize big mistakes and great reads and see the players general strategies. For everyone like me, there’s a dozen guys who either don’t get mechanics of KI very well at all or think the game is SF, and for each of them there’s twelve guys who just want to see successfulcounter breakers or a clutch DP with bright flashing lights and complain in the Twitch chat that Kim Wu is ugly.

If you are really losing interest in any fighting game because the top players are playing suboptimally, you have to recognize how small a part of a small part of a small audience you are. I’m not trying to diminish anyone or their opinions here, but the idea that the game is dying because people make too 8 with gaps in their game knowledge and execution is far fetched.

[Dayv0]

I would like to remark the “mental damage” here, something that most people are ignoring.

KI has tools which deals HUGE mental damage. Performing a CB could be the greatest mental damaging tool ever. I have won and lost games due to mental damage leading to poor choices

This thread is a good example about dealing huge mental damage against your opponent

Whenever KI players talk about risk vs reward, I think about this match of SF4

People have been talking mess about SF4 for a while but so, so many good matches came out of it. This has always been one of my favorites. I don’t wanna hear anyone say giving the opponent a chance to break or going for a counterbreaker is “too risky” ever again. :v

[MDMMORNING]

I feel you, I’m just sayin’ let’s try not to be doomsayers because the same 5 dudes aren’t attending EVERY SINGLE TOURNEY. It’s actually kinda the opposite, and the more new blood hittin’ up the 8BB’s and offlines the better. They may not be Bass-level, but let’s give’em the benefit of the doubt. They’ll get there. The fact that they’re here at all is a sign is a growth, and that’s good. And from what we saw last night, even seasoned “pros” can make really frickin’ amateurish mistakes. We’re human. It’s all good. Fight on.

[Fwufikins]

@MDMMORNING

They may not be Bass-level, but let’s give’em the benefit of the doubt.

^This. Top competitors and athletes didn’t get that way over night. It’s astoundingly rare that someone makes it to the Superbowl in their first season. Why would we expect the same to be done with every KI player?

[SonicDolphin117]

BTW, @OvisCantus, I just read through your full post and I gotta say this:

If it weren’t for Bastfree showing me how important studying frame data is, I would never have stuck and performed will with Kim Wu. I also love your point of figuring out other character’s weaknesses.

You are learning quickly, well done

[ZDhome]

First place finishes in tournaments, and i would be happy to play you.

[llPaulBll]

@MDMMORNING

[X People] will RQ the thread when they have no more nonsense to back up their nonsense with, leaving those with decisive and factually correct input left in the room to stare at each other, and since they are all in agreement w one another, they’ve nothing left to say, and the thread dies of natural causes w/o pomp?

Actually it’s this crappy attitude that’s pushing me, and likely others with valuable perspectives, away from wanting to contribute.

I finally found a minute to catch up on the thread and this is the first thing I see. Posts like this is why no top player in their right mind visits this forum. I don’t know why I still make that mistake.

Closing window.

[TheNinjaOstrich]

Contribute anyway Paul. I would love to hear your explanation. Did you ever post that post you were going to do after your flight? I may have missed it if you did.

[EbullientSeaCow]

Man please contribute anyways. A few people and some of the devs are listening and value all input. Sadly most of the time the minority are the most vocal on the forums. Plus someone’s got to break the trend of pros not talking. Mind as well be you mate.

If I had the skill or know how it would be me. But I can’t lead by example. So please tell us things from your point of view.

[STORM179]

*shrug * No point begging for someone’s opinion. Instead of responding to the multiple constructive posts asking him to elaborate on his perspective, he picked an odd comment not even directed at him to use as validation for why he should “quit” the thread.

If Paul wants to contribute he will. If he doesn’t he won’t. Simple as that, and not really worth advertising for one way or the other.

[EbullientSeaCow]

Eh it’s not begging. I’m just trying to foster an environment for everyone to express their opinions. Paul and others seem to be hesitant or maybe even afraid to express their opinions I just want to show them it’s ok to state their opinions.