Not in the original timeline Liu beat him twice so why would he hold back, Raiden had the powers of the elder gods behind him though and that didn’t phase kahn at first. But in the new timeline Kahn was holding back against Liu since he was very cocky and not giving it his all
If he had supernova powers how comes he still loses to normal humans…also I looked at his story and Wiki..where does it state he has supernova powers???
I did say scorpion though… Scorpion=/=Hanzo Hashashi
Neither is Raiden but he was in the first tournament
Cinder is formidable but he is not on Liu level and he could be good against Hanzo but not scorpion…Scorpion beat Ryu and Cinder could never beat Ryu (he is super powerful when evil or has the power of nothingness)
Yeah, in the OG timeline Kahn couldn’t fight at full capacity in either MK2 or MK3. In MK2 he was forced to fight by tournament rules and standards thus he was mortal (as mortal as he could be) and his magic was kept in check (either by his own will, or by the EGs). MK3 was different because it wasn’t an actual tournament, thus the EGs had no say, but Kahn’s merger drastically affected his power. The biggest factor in MK3 was that the merger never was completed, thus Kahn was vulnerable through out that limbo period (FYI: both Raiden and Nightwolf were mystically fighting Kahn’s merger through various means during the event of MK3/UMK3/MK Trilogy). Beyond that though, Raiden directly interfered in Kahn’s invasion by protecting LK and the other’s souls. Bottom line is that without Raiden’s influence in MK3, LK and everyone else would have died in that game’s prologue.
I might have to take that back. It was explicitly stated in the textual stream from IG that the suit that ARIA outfitted him with stopped him from going supernova, but since the forum switch I have no idea where to find that OG textual stream.
But yeah, canonically the only characters to have beaten Cinder thus far are Maya (right after she got Kan-ra’s Daggers), TJ (I think Ben was still new to his powers then, but whatever), Kan-ra and Aganos (the 2 power houses of S2, though the Aganos loss could be called into question), and Hisako (?) (who also took down ARIA). I don’t think that is a bad track record at all.
Scorpion has lost many battles as well, to: LK, Kuai Liang, Taven, Raiden, Moloch and Drahmin, Quan Chi, Shujinko; Moloch and Drahmin being the low points, but he’s lost mostly to heavy hitters. Both can loose battles, I don’t think that is either here nor there.
You are right, Scorpion > Hanzo, but because Scorpion is being kept in check by Hanzo’ s will, the full potential of Scorpion is being held back, thus he has a weakness.
Raiden wasn’t in the first tournament. If you are referring to Raiden fighting Sonya in MK9, Raiden jumped into that situation in order to stop Sonya from challenging Shang Tsung and dying. Raiden threw that fight to allow Sonya time to save Jax and escape. The first time Raiden fought along side his earth warriors was in MK3 during the invasion, and after that he fought in MK4 against Shinnok’s forces, and in MK Deadly Alliance when they fought in Outworld. He also fought in Armageddon, but he was a bad guy then.
The Gods are bared from participating in Mortal Kombat unless officially challenged, Raiden made that clear in MK1.
LK out skills most/all KI characters, including Jago and Cinder. I’m not under any allusion that in a fair fight that any of these guys would take him down. That being said though, if a character is savvy enough, and has the capacity to fight dirty, they can take down LK. In order for Cinder to beat LK, he’d have to burn hot enough as to not let LK get near him, and/or just start creating massive explosions everywhere. Think Sub vs. LK in the first MK movie. Cinder would have to cheat to win…which he could do.
It is that same philosophy that he’d have to employ in order to beat Scorpion. Cheat. Don’t engage in a fair fight.
Just because someone can cheat doesn’t mean it would work..Balrog is a massive cheat but that wouldn’t do anything to someone like Akuma, M.Bison or Gouken who are like Liu Kang being amongst the strongest competitors in their respective games.
And using the movies as an example is real bad..since well 1 they are non canon…2 they were not made by NR and 3 they were bad (first one was Ok)…
Also cinder burning hot enough wont do anything since 1 Liu is a character who has bested hell fire demons, 4 armed monsters, Ice ninjas, Sourcers who can have almost anybodys abilities and a literal God (well elder god), Also cinder cannot do that since his suit keeps his temp in check and no suit = dead ben, plus liu can just zone the guy he doesn’t need to get really close to him and well liu can turn into a dragon
Also if a guy with a gun cannot do anything in a tournament how could any other cheaters do any better
Nope JEFFRON27 is right…you think even 10% of people here know anything Liu kang or scorpion has done…and people wont give good answers they would most like just say…Jago and Cinder… look somewhere else if you want broader opinions rather than a 3 word statement in the ‘Killer Instinct forums’
Also since there has been no crossover it depends on who wants them to win in the end…how do you think batman beat superman??..people may deny it but since its out there…thats what happened the same said for this…so it based on who want them to win (which again comes down to bias)
And MK has at least a somewhat sensible story (minus mkx)…this game (specifically season 2) has a blazblue story (in terms of quality and inconsistencies)
This place just screams bias…but well it is in the title
It depends on how you cheat. And Balrog is a massive BOXING cheat, meaning he will bite, and head but, and stomp on people’s feet in a match, that is Street Fighting, no rules combat, not really the same thing I’m talking about.
Here’s a good street fighter example, Akuma vs. Gouken. Akuma wins all the time…why? Because he can sink an island, or area of affect destroy at least a square mile, and kill Gouken that way. Now whether or not Akuma would do that is up for debate, but if he wanted to, he could, which would afford him a technical win.
I wasn’t using the movies at all in my last post. If you are unfamiliar / have forgotten, re-read Nightwolf’s MK3 intro…
“Nightwolf works as a historian and preserver of his peoples culture. When Kahn’s portal opens over North America, Nightwolf uses the magic of his Shamen to protect his tribes sacred land. This area becomes a vital threat to Kahn’s occupation of Earth.” - MK3 bio, Nightwolf
Nightwolf’s “protecting” of that land halted / slowed Kahn’s merger. And Raiden was also mystically working against Kahn’s merger as well, primarily in the beginning when he interfered and saved the souls of Earth’s fighters. Kahn’s magiks banished him from the realm (at least in his god form) after that. In MK9, Nightwolf died, and Raiden didn’t fight back (keep in mind too that Kahn didn’t take all the souls of Earth, he had Quan Chi attempt to do it but he failed), thus when the merger began it didn’t take but moments. MK9 retconned / omitted a bunch of info that occurred in the OG timeline.
Hell-fire is more mystical in nature rather than heat based. Hell-fire burns the soul as well as the flesh, and as such Cinder’s fire is in some ways inferior to Hell-fire, BUT it is also superior in some ways as well. The fact that Cinder’s fire is purely physical and burns hotter, “with power and fury a sun” to be exact is one way it is superior (that was said in his bio on this site). That is what gives him such an advantage.
And Cinder without his suit is not “dead Ben,” he’s “a being of pure, uncontrollable plasma energy” (that was said in the story mode). His suit allows him to control the energy at will, thus with the safeties off, Ben is an unrelenting sun…in earth’s atmosphere. LK can’t defeat something he can’t touch.
I assume you are talking about Stryker. In MK, as I’m sure it is the case in KI, and SF for that matter, just having guns and tech doesn’t give you a leg up in any of these fights. Sonya since day one has been using tech that can render flesh to mush / ash, but it is more about the wielder than anything else. Even though Stryker isn’t a fan favorite, the fact that his is one of the “chosen” means something, that he has an ‘inner strength’ that allows him to rise above any perceived frailties, and fight on the level of many of these other world class fighters.
About cheating specifically though, I’ll give you the best MK example there is, the Deadly alliance. Say what you will about how powerful they are, they NEEDED to ambush, double team LK the way they did because LK is just that skilled. I mean, the MKX comic made it canon that LK defeated both Scorpion and Quan Chi in the first tournament, which I guess in turn makes all the other 'Endurance Matches" that were fought in MK9 canon as well. Whatever the case, no matter what the skill gap, with the right plan, and the proper execution, any character, no matter how strong they are, can fall to another.
Um there is no proof it burns hotter since well…its never been compared to hell fire (which in itself doesn’t give a specific tempreture
Yes you were when you said Liu had to cheat to beat sub zero in the movie…
Kotal Kahn has the power of the sun as well but he still gets beat by other warriors…also how could he even have the power of the sun yet still get his ■■■ beat by normal people…sure he can control it but would it have never occurred to him to use it when he was losing against T.J or Kan-ra or Maya
Bullets would kill someone in something called ‘MORTAL kombat’ and if stryker was swat he should be able to aim his gun…what’s stopping someone else to compete with a harrier
True…but in general Hell-fire is most associated with lava and such, not the sun.
Re-read the context of that post…
I wasn’t talking about Liu “cheating,” I was comparing Movie Sub creating frost bubble and not allowing Liu to get close, to how Cinder could create a heat-wave, which would also not allow Liu to get close. Liu using water to defeat Sub never even crossed my mind, but then again, I guess that too is a good example of someone “cheating” to get a win in MK.
Kotal’s use of the sun is far different from Cinder having the power of a sun within him. And why Cinder looses to characters who he probably shouldn’t isn’t something I dwell on too much. One of the most disappointing parts of the MKX story was Kotal being beaten by Kung Jin. Explain that one…then maybe we can start to understand why Cinder lost to TJ…but then again, probably not.
Kabal and Styker both had guns trained on Reptile in MK9, and Retile was able to dodge the gun fire while climbing a building, then on the roof he used his acid spit to create an acid cloud which dissolved the bullets mid flight at what looked like a 20ft distance.
In MKX, Sonya and her team were in a convoy of military helicopters, all filled with gun wielding soldiers, which were all taken down by 2 ninjas, Sub and Scorp, and Revenant LK.
In MKX, 3 military soldier trained automatic rifles on Quan Chi in the Netherrealm and fired, and Quan simply erected a shield of skulls blocking all the bullets, then Sub froze all 3 soldiers where they stood in one shot.
In another instance in the Netherrealm, 3 soldiers were fireing at Revenant LK, and LK blew them all up with on fireball blast.
In MKX as well, Johnny and Sonya fired directly at Shinnok in the Jinsei chamber, and he bullet timed a magical shield AFTER THEY FIRED in order to absorb all the bullets.
Guns don’t allow for an advantage in MK, at best the can pull characters even. I give Characters from SF and KI the same respect for the most part.
Hell fire is from hell…Lava is not a form of fire as well since lava is mantle outside of the earths crust…you still cannot compare hell fire (something that does not exist) to Lava (A hot viscous liquid)
The whole idea behind the post is not really fair if you say they can cheat…so pretty much it doesn’t matter who would acctually based on skills in the fight but so long as you can cheat you win…
So using the cheating example as a means of winning the fight is really not going to work since if all you had to do was cheat anybody can win…making this threat kinda pointless after that
They don’t go on deathbattle and when goku fights superman pulls out criptonite to win…or letting Sektor summon more robo ninjas to kill fulgore (sektor has that ability)…see anybody can win by cheating so saying cinder can win by cheating is utterly meaningless since is something anyone can do its just a matter of execution
Also didn’t you say on another threat Ryu cannot control his Power of nothingness and satsui no hado?? neither can cinder with his plasma engergy but when he uses it against liu he wins but not with ryu against jago?..
Also I think the both of us are getting to realisitc with scenarios…in a videogame battle…
Also if cinder did have this sun power? how do we know if he can access it? how do we know if he has never done it…at least ryu has used the satsui no hado before
So when it comes down to it as VIDEOGAME characters looking at it Liu and scorp win based on Liu having better skills, great power, turning into a dragon and beating the strongest of opponest in the mortal kombat univesrse and one beat M.bison. Scorpion is undead and gets stronger in the netherealm…Jago is very strong but more like Ryu strong (or more) but needs omen to become the stronger shadow jago..and cinder while being a guy on fire wears the suit to keep it in check (and has never taken it off) and is also very strong, but has been beaten by the likes of T.J. combo, maya and others who are not as strong as a warrior like gargos, Fulgore mk3, Hisako, Thunder or Season 1 jago… Looks like cinder and jago just cannot burn as hot as liu and scorp
I get you, the only thing is that the Netherrealm is a hot, lava ridden place, and Scorpion has been seen being submerged in Lava…which is why I associate his power, Hell-fire, with it. But yeah, it is what it is. Scorpion’s heat has never been quantified, but at the same time his heat has never been a focus. Scorpion is an unrelenting wraith who never stops coming after his target, not the human torch or whatever. So though Cinder and Scorpion are both fire based character, Cinder is the only one between them who is a fire focused character.
I agree with you here too. At this point we, I, am just having fun. I already agree that Liu would win in a “fair” and moral fight, and in a sense we are talking about 2 different things at this point:
MK vs. KI in character
and
MK vs. KI no morals / out of character, with all abilities taken to their limit
There may have been a sort of ‘bait and switch’ that has happened as the thread has progressed (my fault) due to the “rules” as they have developed at CV. On there, it you don’t stipulate the rules, then anything goes. Here though, I didn’t make any such stipulation, thus we were essentially talking about 2 different scenarios from jump. All in all though, this was just debate for debates sake, in order to just push the idea as far as it could go…and it seems we’ve hit that limit.
I think you think I’m taking this more serious than I am. If you ever get the chance, you should visit the battle forums of Comicvine.com, as this here, is what that over there, is all about. You’d be good at it. It is the reason why I push / show all the links and quotes and stuff that I do, as it is just a habit at this point that has developed after “battling” for so many years on these fictional subjects and having to show proofs and such. Honestly, one of the reasons I’m really looking forward to Season 3 of KI is in part so that I can argue KI on there more, Lol! But whatever, yeah, that is really what this was all about.
So next time, if there is a next time, I’ll stipulate better, and better try to stick to those rules.
