Linker scaling

If you want to see broken, look at Cinder in KI1 for Snes. The only character in the game that can even hold a candle to him is Eyedol, who is only playable with a cheat code. Where you have to pick Cinder to put it in… OMG wow… Epiphany!!! No wonder Cinder is soo damned broken haha! His DP is 100% safe, all the time, he has space momentum controlled jump, can turn literally invisible, has safe on block full screen crossups, has unbreakable combos, a strict unblockable attack, can become projectile immune, yes immune all the time(until he is hit) and in the arcade version he has an infinite ender juggle that is unbreakable. Whenever you play KI on snes and someone says, I’m soo good at this game, and they pick Cinder… You slap them on the back of the head and say, I win scrub. Then don’t speak to them ever again.

P.S. Edit: He even has a secret teleport. Travels from one side of the screen to the other. That move is in no manual, handbook, strategy guide, nothing. I found it by accident when I was younger, and used it to demolish max difficulty since enemies had a hard time blocking unblockables =) there might be youtube videos on it.
Found one actually, explains everything.

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You know there’s a rumor that the reason KI1 was so broken was because Rare’s play testers hated fighting games.

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Oh, I don’t mean to suggest that the scaling glitches are intentional in the sense of “we’re going to tweak scaling to touch up damage values”. To the contrary, the situation seems eminently wonky and very probably unintentional. What I mean is that the bug is likely sort of “baked in” to how all the other facets of how a character deals damage, thereby yielding a reasonable approximation of the overall intended damage a character is meant to do. It’s not that it’s not a bug - it’s more that the characters seemingly have already been balanced around the existence of the bug. In essence, I think that in most instances it’s probably a wash, and that the characters in general probably do the damage IG wants them to do.

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Intresting watch. But that guy quite the whiny one. “play fair!” ■■■■■ please… oh well.

IMO KI1 was so broken because making fighting games is next to impossible even under the best conditions, and we knew absolutely nothing about the genre in 1994.

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It stands to reason though, Cinder was so OP in that game that you could beat people if you landed one flip kick. Put them into an unblockable setup into an unbreakable combo rinse and repeat. His DP couldn’t lose so it was guaranteed. I used to run a promo at my store 50% off if you beat me in KI1 Snes. Had a small note on the bottom 10% if Cinder is used. Everyone that came in for it used Cinder. I pointed out the disclaimer on Cinder and a few of them said ok you know he is cheap and a few walked out. Only a few knew all of his cant beat me tactics but, when a character stands alone on top by no small margin, it is hard to not complain about it a bit. Old days patches couldn’t be made, so restrictions are set. Brawl had a ban list ect.

Eh.

I’ve been meaning to get around to posting here. Good work, @DEClimax. I only knew about the bug with Riptor. Sifting through the rest of the cast for it was more work than I was up to at the time, so I know you’ve put a lot of effort into this.

I encountered this with Riptor…probably more than a year ago? Made a note of it in the bug thread then, but like @STORM179 I figured it might be known by the devs and may’ve been “baked into the damage cake” by that point, or might even be how the majority of characters are done for all I knew, so I didn’t make a lot of noise about it. Riptor’s damage was viable enough as a short combo setup/pressure/shenanigans character that the issue didn’t bother me as much as the one-frame medium manuals thing I complained about (which IG addressed, bless them :slight_smile: ), but it does discourage longer combos with the dinosaur, especially since Riptor’s opener manuals are bad/inconsistent enough that you want to do opener into linker most of the time. (Let it be known that Jago is probably still the king of manuals.)

At the time when I figured this out I was trying to infer how the damage scaling worked to use it in an expected damage solver that I was talking about making at the time, that I’ve…kinda left on the backburner, to be honest. There’s some subtlety to the model I was working with that I wanted to do right, and I guess also that the way the competitive community has behaved bummed me out a little, and left me apprehensive about putting my work out there. Whilst I’ll stand by the mathematics of it anyday, my KI “game sense” isn’t something I’m entirely confident about leaning on, and I kinda didn’t want to invite a wall of cynicism about that not being “how the game works”.


For those who are curious, a little more detail on damage scaling: as you’d know, first hits are scaled by 200%. Subsequent manual double hits appear to be scaled by ~75% x 0.9^n, where n is a counter which roughly tracks the total number of “hits” in the combo thus far (including the current hit being scaled). Multi-hit moves usually increment the scaler with each hit of the move and each hit is then scaled separately, with notable exceptions (e.g. most linkers tack on two increments regardless of the number of hits, obviously the exceptions being the subject of this thread). Auto double and linker hits follow a similar formula and use/increment the same counter, albeit with a different constant percentage out the front. I think the numbers are a little different in places from this time a year ago (so I’m not giving the percentages from my notes, but I think the auto double number is 50%), but considering how drastically the combo system has changed in that time I guess that’s to be expected. There seems to be a bit of weirdness that throws this off by a percentage point here and there, which might be rounding errors (say, if the game is tracking a scaling coefficient and modifying it at each hit by multiplying it by 0.9 and then doing some rounding?) or might be something else. Opener and pre-opener hits generally increment the scaling per hit as well, so that e.g. it’s better in the long run for Jago to open a combo with something like HK xx medium laser sword (2 increments) than with fwd+HK xx heavy laser sword (4 increments).

There’s also guts scaling to consider. I have notes which say that guts scaling appeared to kick in at level steps at 50%, 30% and 15% (danger) life remaining, for scaling of 5%, 10% and 20%, respectively, but I don’t know if that’s correct, if it’s changed, how it combines with combo scaling, etc.

I’ve got various other odds and ends, things like ender level PD requirements, if anyone’s interested, but I was lax on details during data collection so I’d have to mess around again to interpret it properly.

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Yeah, I’m not entirely sure how exactly scaling works, but my findings are this:

There is some constant scaling value, not necessarily the one represented by the damage percentage in the attack data. The amount it affects linkers and doubles differs; doubles do more PD with heavier scaling on real damage, while linkers suffer less from scaling on their real damage but are hit very hard in scaling for their PD. Manuals, on the other hand, are affected less by scaling on both raw damage and PD than linkers. Doubles and linkers, like you said, both advance this scaling amount by two hits, while manuals advance it by one. Shadows, meanwhile, don’t advance scaling at all, and will always deal 60% of their “total” damage per hit (which they will technically never do,) except when they’re in juggles, where they will scale for every hit.

Now, two notable things about this. First, the manual scaling; this was very interesting to me, because this is actually a contributing factor to the insane damage of mira’s counterbreaker combos. Because she’s alternating huge-damage linkers with low-scaling manuals, she squeezes some extra damage out. If it were possible to do the same combo with light doubles instead of light manuals within the lockout window, she would do 2% less damage.

The other thing is that, contrary to what I expected, the shadow scaling in juggles also affects recaptures. This is yet another way riptor is hurt by damage scaling, as when she uses her shadow tail flip to anti-air, the combo starts heavily scaled. It also means that stuff like sabrewulf recapture mid-combo is just…not really worth it. You open yourself up to being broken, spend a bar, all to convert an air combo to a very crappy ground combo. Might as well try to raise ender level in the juggle then cash out with eclipse or flip out into a reset.

As for guts scaling…this is a system I’ve always strongly disliked. IMO all it does is decrease the readability of the game. On the other hand, it’s probably not worth getting worked up over.

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Right, I forgot that the coefficient for PD scaling is different than that for damage. Might explain some of the different numbers I have in my notes.

Well, @thekeits confirmed that it isn’t a bug, so it is what it is. I do think it’s worth noting though that despite maya’s patch notes saying that her linkers now scale normally, they definitely don’t, meaning she’s still in the level 3 counterbreaker club and is unlikely to be able to capitalize much from late lockouts.

To add to what I said in the other thread, changing this would be catastrophic for game balance without many many months to retest and retune both damage output values and other risk/reward factors related to ender levels.

It is by design as it is now. Some characters are meant to build ender levels slower than others, and this is part of how we do that behind the scenes.

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Fair enough. I’m curious though–the kan-ra and aria ones, too? I can see it for the rest of the cast but the way it is for them is even weirder.

Intentional.

I called it PogChamp

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:thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:

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Lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala :kissing_smiling_eyes:

But in all seriousness, this is more the sentiment I was talking about :smile:

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To my knowledge this hasn’t been affected me so much as Riptor since I don’t rely just on damage alone for my playstyle.

Obviously if this bug does exist and it has to be fixed we would have to have the damages reduced a tad so it feels like it normally does with the bug. since doing so means characters who have it, will be doing all kinds of damage.