I did a frame by frame test on a replay just to see what was going on and I don’t think the invulnerability to Light DP for Fulgore is working the way it should. At least not by what I’m seeing. Most all DP’s in the game that I know of are Invulnerable on startup per usual and typically that’s 3 frames with the hurtbox coming out on the 3rd frame as well so when the invulnerability stopped the hit became active thus giving you the reversal. What I saw with Fulgore in the frame by frame, his unvulnerability stopped after the 2nd frame and his hit doesn’t become active until the 4th frame so anything hitting mid, mid low or low that’s active when he starts light DP will trade or counter hit him. That’s not how I remember his DP behaving in the past. And I do remember hearing the phrase “dp’s are invulnerable until they leave the ground” somewhere in the past which is why Shadow Eclipse pretty much never trades with anything.
So I think there’s an issue here to be honest. Frame by frame this is what I saw
Frame 1: Startup DP
Frame 2: Invincible
Frame 3: Red Hitbox appears on Fulgore’s DP but no hit as well as Green Hurtbox appearing on his legs
Frame 4: Hitbox connects with opponent
Since Fulgore’s DP is mostly the exact same as Jago’s, Jago’s should trade with Wulf Slide as well. Don’t have the time to test that one though.
Hey it could gave been worse… it could have gone the way of SFV’s “Invincible” Reversals…
2 Frames doesn’t seem like much… you need to be hella precise to pass through an attack if you can only be intangible for 2 Frames.
Well, if you meaty, those 2 frames are moot. Most of the time you dp as a reaction not really a pre-emptive. So in this case, most of the time your opponent will have active hitboxes when the invincibility stops leading to a lot of trades or counter hits that I would say are unintended. I no longer play Fulgore but I can say if his DP is only a half threat where you can trade with it or beat it with certain moves or specials regularly then there will be ways to just keep him slow clocked on spin and unable to use any form of wakeup while being stuck on defense with no options left aside from wait the 20-30 seconds to shadow counter. That’s pretty bad… He already has his struggles, a less than useful DP should be the last of his worries.
I’m not following @SullenMosquito …
Are you saying that this particular frame, which should be frame 3 of Fulgore’s light DP, shouldn’t happen?
Can’t say for certain if it should or shouldn’t happen. But, I would take it that if you took every DP in the game the hurtbox of the dp hits the frame they stop being invulnerable so you get the reversal benefit of it being a DP. I know with Cinder, unless someone avoids the hurtbox outright, his doesn’t miss, whiff or trade unless other properties. Case in point if you did Fulgore light DP vs Meaty Wulf slide they trade. Do the same for Jago. If all DP’s follow the same general properties, Jago’s should trade too but until I get home I can’t verify. So whether or not that frame shouldn’t happen I can’t say but, Fulgore’s DP should beat Wulf’s slide. Otherwise all DP’s that work about the same way, Orchid, Jago, Fulgore and Shago should trade with Wulf slide. That’s kinda what I’m getting at.
I can confirm Shisako’s dp and Arias blade body dp trade with Wulf. No reason the others shouldn’t.
I have a half shift today, I’ll see what I can figure out. While I know Wulf slide is unsafe on block, I don’t think Wulf should be rewarded with a neutral or possibly advantageous position vs most DP’s in the game from one special. He’s rushdown your DP is your risk get off me button. If he can force a trade then DP’s vs Wulf become infinitely more risky… I know with Cinder I have to DP the slide early or he low profiles avoiding it completely but he doesn’t Tag Cinder with a hit like some others apparently. But all we can really do is test it across the board and see if devs confirm a bug or say intended. but I still feel the DP should have priority over the slide since all that has is low hurtbox so the benefit properties should be low profile vs invincibility. I might look back at some old tourney footage too see if I can’t find any Gore vs Wulf stuff.
For what it’s worth, i don’t think any character is rewarded for trading with a light DP in any sense. I don’t know the damage numbers but i feel like counter-hit Hamstring is not a harder hitting move than counter-hit DP. And DP trades that i know of result in the non DP player being launched and knocked down.
I did figure out something in testing though. It has nothing to do with the DP’s themselves but after getting through 6 characters and finding a window where it trades and where it doesn’t I believe I have a culprit if anyone is able to frame by frame it down. It’s with Wulf’s hamstring and it depends what point of the animation is the meaty. If it’s an early hit, DP works fine as intended. If it’s a late hit, like near the end of the animation or even the last 1 or 2 frames of the hamstring hitbox itself, then it trades and there is a noticeable delay or frame stop as if it has a disjointed hitbox or something. So, I got that far but I don’t have the capacity or 2 players to come up with a replay or frame by frame training mode. So in order to consistently get the trade, the hamstring has to be a very late specifically timed meaty. Which is probably why I’ve never seen it happen since I don’t play Wulf’s Flash’s level who may know that as a form of tech rather than have it happen by chance. Doesn’t really explain the Orchid one though but, I’d assume it’s the same thing or something similar.
With the priority system you have to remember that all hitboxes are also hurtboxes for moves of equal or greater priority. As eclipse and slide are both grounded specials just like the start of DPs, if the two hitboxes intersect then they’ll trade, regardless of whether or not there were regular hurtboxes present.
I’m glad I’m not the only one having these weird interactions.