Jago: Season 3 Thread

Characters Jago
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During KIWC we were presented with a plethora of balance changes to everyone in the cast along with two complete reworks of tech and style to welcome us to the next season. Along with those changes included Jago, my main and for some here, theirs too. I’m honestly happy about the changes, I do wish that his instinct was tweaked a little rather than reduce his health intake - not too much is taken away but I wonder if using two stocks of meter is worth it with the rest of the cast. Still, I like how he is no longer unfair after a Combo Break into Instinct Cancel. I could really get into his changes and how I will see him becoming a superbly balanced character, alas, I want to refrain from posting an essay and am eager to see what the rest of you guys think.

Nerfs

[-] Fixed a bug that allowed you to perform Shadow Tigers Fury the frame before landing after a blocked or hit Tigers Fury.

[-] Reduced Laser Sword Ender damage by ~10%[-] Reduced Endokuken Ender damage by ~15%

[-] Double Roundhouse (F+HK) starts up 1 frame slower so that you can’t use this heavy move as a medium manual.

[-] Healing amount per hit during Instinct reduced by 25%.

Buffs

[+] Adjusted the crouching HK attack box so it better matches his foot. This makes it slightly easier to juggle with as well.

[+] Throw canceled into a Shadow Move starts with less KV for increased juggle opportunities.

[+] Normal attacks push the opponent back less in a juggle for increased juggle opportunities.

[+] Medium and Heavy Laser Sword juggles launch higher and closer for increased juggle opportunities.

[+] Light Laser Sword and Jumping LP now cause Flip Out.

[+] Shadow Endokuken is larger and has a larger hitbox.

[+] New ability: Endokuken Charge!

  • Can now hold the button to delay an Endokuken’s release.

  • When fully charged, you release a Big Endokuken.

  • Jago can dash cancel in either direction while charging up.

  • Big Endokukens can destroy some smaller projectiles, and also deals increased hitstun, blockstun, and damage.You can charge up in Instinct, and you will release two Big Endokukens at full charge.

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I’m very pleased with the Jago changes. I never truly agreed with “He’s fine as is” statement. His zoning was what I always believed could use some love. Because of the linearity of his zoning, it made this facet of his gameplay very matchup specific. Against Ra or Fulgore, trying to zone would easily lead to Jago being overwhelmed. Heck even Cinder could overtake him. Now that’s no longer the case. Also elated to see the Endokuken Fake make a return. This will help spice up his rushdown, I feel it should be used sparingly however so as to avoid punishment for being predictable. Overall, Jago’s walking into S3 much stronger despite the few nerfs he got.

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I’m glad that people will stop complaining about things like combo breaker xx instinct cancel lifegain, but since it didn’t matter at all before (like all instinct cancel after breaker shenanigans), I’m pretty unfazed about losing it.

Similar thing goes for the shadow fireball, fireball xx shadow DP unbreakable becoming breakable under opener-ender rules. Sure I lose some marginal utility from not being able to close out 30% of a lifebar with a throw, but most of the time I’m tagging that sequence onto the end of a longer, breakable combo, so that bit at the end is still an unbreakable source of an extra few ender levels.

Sweeps becoming breakable is another stealth nerf that I don’t care about very much. I did the numbers at some point a few months ago and concluded that yes, launcher ender into sweep is a decent alternative to damage ender if you’re not going to close out the lifebar – but hard knockdowns aren’t really that good for Jago, either. I’ve found that mostly I want to be doing longer combos into meter ender, because the in-combo mixup just has far better expected lifeswing attached to it than Jago’s oki, and the meter is just useful all over the place for Jago. I don’t know where all of this is going to lie coming into season 3, but anything that gets us away from this dumb one-chance launcher sweep garbage that various Jagos think is good, will probably be welcomed by me.

Related, the effects of the damage normalization (specifically the ender stuff) are yet to be seen, but it seems pretty cast-wide, and flip-out on breaker basically means that average combo lifeswing goes up for not having to defend on wakeup from even a soft knockdown anymore. The juggles could help expected damage, too. Overall I’m not worried, to say the least.

Regarding the juggles, I don’t have too much to say about it, but I’m kinda keen to explore Jago’s new juggles, considering that I’ve labbed some stuff several times before and been disappointed at the blowouts. I don’t expect this to be a “focus” of the game come season 3, but not adding 80+ KV per juggle hit will be a welcome change!

The double roundhouse change is kinda amusing, since that thing was basically an auto double anyway. The extra frame probably shouldn’t be too big of a deal in neutral – it’ll still be a great move with some notable caveats.

The only things which bother or concern me at all are:

  1. I feel wounded that I’m losing things like the DP manual into shadow DP, and shadow fireball, fireball xx shadow DP, due to the loss of the DP recovery cancel. Mind, I don’t ever do the Thompxson on whiff or block, I don’t even want that to be a viable option for me because I don’t like the execution on that during a frantic DP whiff situation, and I think it’s probably too good and not very fun anyway. But I’d’ve appreciated a proper cancel window (with a more generous buffer) being enshrined into the game that only becomes available on hit (which has been done for various moves across the cast, e.g. riptor’s shoulder charge and talon rake), since it’s kinda useful and very cool.
  2. Is the lifegain going to be any good anymore? I mean, yes the double fireballs are still good (wait…charged double fireballs?) and it’ll always be nice to gain 3% plus meter whenever fireball pressure happens to connect, but I’m not entirely convinced that we’ll still be going for those flashy double shadow fireball juggles and the like that kinda headlined the instinct rework when the reward is often sub-20%. I guess we might wind up settling for something like shadow fireball → double fireball → wind kick → shadow DP, thanks to the lower juggle KV, to abuse the PD and also get 10% lifegain incidentally. Alternatively, the lifegain might still be good enough to justify the meter usage. But I guess while I’m concerned, I’m not infatuated with the lifegain antics either, so this concern is very secondary to my (still pretty mild) first concern.

It should be pretty clear that this stuff is pretty minor. I’m still baffled that Jago got off so lightly on the nerfs, especially considering the new toys we have to work with.

I think most accepted that Jago wasn’t really a zoner in season 2. There are matchups where his fireballs are more relevant than just as a cancel option off HP and back+HP, but against most opponents you’re obviously either getting rushed the moment you throw one in neutral, or getting outclassed by superior projectiles on the other side, or giving your opponent a free skull, or…

But honestly, I never really minded, either, because all I ever wanted to do was wind kick and frame trap and play some footsies. And he was solid with just those things, I’d happily say he was “fine as is”. Jago doesn’t need to be a credible zoner to be formidable.

Which is to say that now I feel a bit spoilt by all the riches IG is delivering us come season 3. Not only can we put a respectable fireball on the screen (which granted, rushier characters are still going to largely ignore – but maybe we can bait with the fakeout?), but we get a fun toy that makes a thing like crMK xx fireball a somewhat worthwhile option to explore for the first time in, well, ever. Probably makes HP xx fireball a bit sweeter, too. There might also be some dumb juggle shenanigans to be had with the light laser sword flip-out, marking the first time I’ll ever have used a light laser sword in an actual match.

Basically, as a Jago main I feel that we’re going to do really well out of the rebalance, to the extent that I feel surprised to state that I’m currently more worried about the lot of certain other characters that I’ve never even bothered to learn to play competently. It really feels like we mostly just got buffs.

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Seems like out of all the characters Jago got hur tthe least and got a bunch more goodies to go into it.

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Don’t get me wrong, certain players’ playstyles certainly got hurt. I just happen to not really care for the things those players were doing.

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I am looking forward to Jago more than ever with season 3 :blush: . When I saw the fireball dash cancel my first thought was “Oh, I didn’t know we where playing MKX”
(That’s a joke by the way)
I am also really looking forward to getting creative with new juggles.

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So, I’ve tried to look for it but was unable to come up with a conclusive answer.

How much health (percentage wise) does Jago get per Endokuken? I kept thinking 3-4% per Endokuken, and with the -25% how much would it then be come Season 3?

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2% per firebal currently. Down to 1.5% per fireball in S3.

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2% per hit > 1.5% in season 3. So two fireballs will return 3% instead of 4%, and a shadow will return 7.5% instead of 10%.

Edit: damn it, I need to stick to snappy answers!

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You’ve just been ninja’d :smirk:

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Dang, thanks for the replies.

Like @Fnrslvr mentioned above, will Jago’s health recovery even be as critical? I mean, I don’t want to say it is not good because an health gain is better at any rate. I just think of his damage nerf and the rest of the cast, especially Kim with her insane damage. Wouldn’t you instead rely on Shadow Laser Sword and Shadow Tiger Fury?

Then again, KV has been knocked down for juggles so where you could only do 3 special attacks during a juggle using both stocks of meter, it may be possible to get even more or rather just have an entire new setup. Wow, just thinking of the possibilities…

Level four combo > Instinct Cancel> Light Endo. > Light Laser Sword > Battery Ender > Medium Endo. > Shadow Endo. > Medium Endo. > Shadow Endo. > Light Endo. > Manual > Light Endo.

:point_up:

Is that even freaking possible?! I must have Season 3 :astonished:

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I’ve actually always been of the mind that only using Jago’s meters for instinct shadow endokuken shenanigans is a poor use of meter. Jago gets a LOT of utility off of his meter, and saving it for your guaranteed 30% life swing is not always the best choice. Now that I’m playing around with and learning Jago I think that even more strongly. Jago gets really good damage if you’re willing to spend the meter within combo, and he has enough tools to continuously apply solid pressure once he’s knocked you down. He builds bar so quickly that you can hit people with shadow DP’s and blow through fireballs with shadow wind kicks, and STILL probably have enough bar for a shadow fireball juggle or two once you get that instinct.

The purpose of the game isn’t to preserve your own life - it’s to drain the other guy’s. Jago’s instinct is really, really good, and there are definitely times when that life swing is your best option. That said, I’d generally rather kill the other guy quickly while maintaining my own pressure than hold onto meter in the hope that once I get hit I’ll be able to recoup my losses. Even a 30% life gain is really just an extra combo (two at most) for much of the cast.

But yes, I do think the life regen reduction will probably make people less apt to hoard meter while waiting for instinct cancel->fireball shenanigans. I also think that strategy is probably overused at present though.

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I think you would need to do a light or medium normal rather than a laser sword, a special move cannot take advantage of the manual cancel window and so would have 5 frames less of advantage to work with (nowhere near enough for a laser sword).

I don’t know if the above is possible, but if it was with the old health gain the would give you 44% health gain, which will be reduced to 33% in s3. For a more regularly occurring juggle such as: [double fireball xx shadow fireball] ×2, double fireball; would now do 24% instead of 32%.

Although the health gain has been reduced, damage has seen across the board reductions so health is actually of more value now. I think the health gain will still be a very potent tool in season 3, as people will have a harder time actually reducing your health in the first place, and then will have to do it again.

Edit: interesting to see two different (and both valid IMO) opinions on the same topic. I was also going to mention that if people are more encouraged to use the additional + 2 frame advantage he gets on all moves then that is a good thing, but I wanted to keep my post short so I didn’t get ninja’d by a damn spider…

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I kind of see your point here still I want to refer to your other statement where you said, “He builds bar so quickly”. That said, if I were to used all my meter on gaining health and withdraw my attack to work on building meter, I would still be at an advantage of Instinct assuming I am at a good distance to fireball my meter back without the risk of being shadowed through. Of course I’m risking frame pressure but, i’m restoring my meter and still poking at my opponent. I often forget how defensive Jago can be with Instinct, despite his zoning curve with Season 2 characters. Still, if the match is too much - I will certainly take damage over health. Guess it all really depends for me. [quote=“MBABanemobius, post:13, topic:4540”]
interesting to see two different (and both valid IMO) opinions on the same topic. I was also going to mention that if people are more encouraged to use the additional + 2 frame advantage he gets on all moves then that is a good thing, but I wanted to keep my post short so I didn’t get ninja’d by a ■■■■ spider…
[/quote]
Yeah, its really nice. Moreover, I like how differently Jago can be played despite his rather ordinary moveset. Lol the salts.

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This is an interesting take on it. I guess the main thing I noted is that while pretty much all characters had SOME of their enders nerfed in terms of damage, the bigger nerf (or perhaps the more consistent one) was a reduction in damage for ender types. Battery enders do less, as do all enders that allow juggling after. Jago’s tiger fury is a pure damage ender, and you’ll notice that it was left off the list for damage reductions. So even in the S3 of somewhat reduced damage, Jago’s DP ender is still doing the crazy damage that he gets off it now.

So really what IG has done for S3 is make players really prioritize what it is they actually want/value when deciding on ender type. Sure, you can get your potential damage building juggle into hard knockdown, but the hard knockdown is now breakable and you’re going to have to take a damage penalty for it, and the damage penalty will now be relevant in a way that it might not have been in S2. While some of the more insane cashouts in the game are gone now, I still get the sense that lockout damage in the game is going to be really high, particularly if someone is willing to spend the meter. I honestly don’t think ending Jago’s lifebar after an instinct is going to take all that much more effort than it does currently.

But as you say, that is kind of the beauty of the adjustment. Sometimes the juggle into hard knockdown will be more important, sometimes the meter will be more important, and sometimes just ending someone’s lifebar will be most important. How you decide to end a combo will now be a legitimate choice with real tradeoffs, and will reflect player preferences and values - and that’s pretty cool when you think about it. :slightly_smiling:

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The main reason I spend Jago’s meter on fireball combos in instinct is because, once you knock them down, you throw a meaty double fireball and you’ve basically built back half a bar. You get up close to them and do fwd+HK xx double fireball (which leaves you at -2, I think) and you’re basically back up to 1.5 stocks. It’s ridiculous how fast you can build your meter back.

So my main source of instinct is to heal myself, then build my meter back up as quickly as possible by meaty double fireball and some other pressure. If I can, I will usually have time for using the new meter in a bunch of other ways.

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No, I’m fine with using the meter once you’re in instinct - my beef is with those Jago’s who will just sit on their meter in expectation of popping instinct. Sure, once you’re closer to having a full bar it might be prudent to hold onto one or both of them, but just never using meter for anything but instinct combos (or the odd safe-ish DP) is, to me, a suboptimal use of Jago’s resources.

Precisely because it so easy to build meter with Jago once in instinct, I personally don’t see the point of just sitting on it for an entire fight. He gets a lot of damage off that meter if you’re willing to spend it that way.