My reaction to this whole thread.
I want you, to learn when to block.
7 Likes
If you have the basic fundamentals down for neutral, shouldn’t you be able to deal with character specific stuff by labbing it?[quote=“ZDhome, post:31, topic:19653”]
Dodging bats, only to get knocked down by the airdash kick, and eat the same thing when you wake up, is also not fun.
[/quote]
Pretty simple. If you have solid fundamentals such as blocking, spacing, punishing, mind games, and you know the basics of KI stuff, you should be able to deal with most of the “degenerate” neutral. You had to get knocked down first for this to work. Raw bats into airdash kick doesn’t work in neutral. If it worked in neutral, then you need to work on your neutral game and fundamentals instead of complaining about things being degenerate.[quote=“ZDhome, post:34, topic:19653”]
All of those characters you listed represent an evolution away from neutral play.
[/quote]
Define neutral play.
@ZDhome in your first post you talked about wiff punishing a normal with a normal. And how if you take specials out of the mix in KI it’s hard to do and sometimes not possible to do. The main flaw I’m finding with your argument is how that relates to S1,2,3 and how those mechanics have ever changed. From my perspective they only got better when IG took over they buffed the first hit damage and counter hit damage.
My understanding is you were trying to provide insight as to why people feel S2 is better than S3 for grounded footsies, but the main argument you used was wiff punishing a normal with a normal, which as far as I can tell hasn’t changed at all.
I feel like if you want to play a solid neutral game, there are plenty of characters you can play that are very rewarded for just maintaining space and using pokes without cancelling. Kim and Arbiter are good examples of this.
2 Likes
Have you ever considered that the issue may not be with the effectiveness of solid neutral play in KI, but rather with your skill in the neutral game?
Just a thought.
4 Likes
(I have a lot of replies to get to, but I’m on the road. I’ll be home tomorrow to pick this up when I have a keyboard. 
)
Short answers:
@Skryba if you read the whole thread, you brought her up first. If you aren’t even trying to look for what’s true or not, this conversation can’t go very far.
@SLHiImKeith be helpful, or leave please. (And everyone who liked his non- constructive sh*post)
@Sasuke99I you also aren’t reading correctly. None of this thread is about “dealing” with anything.
@DeathBlooms2K8 the mechanics are de- emphasised and slightly flawed imo. I’m not trying to say they are gone.
@SonicDolphin117 very good point, and I actually have been interested in trying one out.
@DEClimax yes, I always question my skill. But no amount of skill can lead to successful, consistent whiff punishes of some large normals in this game.
I guess this is where I don’t see your argument. It’s fine to dislike KI’s particular brand of neutral, but it’s always been there, man. Maybe you’ve played more and you see it better now. Maybe the scene has leveled up and found more tricks or strategies you don’t like to deal with.
The thought that KI was once a game with easily controlled neutral that has become more and more degenerate with patches is just… it’s just simply not true. In fact, the degenerate mixup game you seem to dislike was really at its peak in S2; most of the S3 changes, both at launch and throughout the season, have distinctly tried to lessen this type of thing by slowing down moves (Wulf overhead), making moves like Jago M wind kick more unsafe, adding much higher cost to unreactables like Arbiter jump gunshot, etc.
What I’ve gathered from your argument is “I don’t like fighting Mira” and that’s fine. But if you’re going to make sweeping generalizations about S2 having great neutral and S3 having bad neutral, in your opinion, you’ll have to point to specifics that are now in S3 that weren’t in S2 and I don’t feel you’ve done that yet.
4 Likes
I’m telling you that some of the things you’re complaining can be solved by understanding that the characters you use vs another one sometimes will have to learn to hold that L and block or shadow counter the block string since they can’t press a button due to it being a frame trap. Its what me and my baby girl Riptor do all day to other players. You don’t hold that block or shadow counter me you get eff’ed up.
Now excuse me as I neutral my way out of this thread.
I never represented S2 positively, or compared any of its mechanics to S3.
I also never specifically complained about Mira. I used her as an example because someone else brought her up.
It seems to me like people are getting messages and vibes that I never even sent out in the first place.
If the message has been lost in translation, there’s not much I can do except re- iterate with different words. I will re- think when I get home. Foods here.
I thought you did this, but reading back I guess it was Sightless who made the S2 comparison.
I just blended the two together, I suppose, because you did say “this type of play is much more prevalent in S3”. I feel this statement needs more backing up with concrete examples, because I really don’t know where you’re getting that notion from. S2 was a very crazy, extremely oppressive game, and S3 is, I feel, a little bit less oppressive (or, at most, roughly about the same amount of oppressiveness). I don’t see the evidence to suggest it’s more oppressive.
2 Likes
Great post I started playing KI at the end of S2 and I like many others preferred the game as it was then. I also hate it when a bunch of people on the forum go and tell people who think differently to play a different game it’s such a toxic way of dealing with things. If you guys didn’t like the game you wouldn’t be posting about it on the forums…you would just quit the game and say no more. I’d love for this community to grow and embrace everyone’s different opinions without trying to tell them in a round about way that they are stupid, there posts is stupid and go play another game if you don’t love everything about KI!
1 Like
Who’s saying that?
No one in this thread.
His post didn’t accuse anyone on this thread of doing it.
You read posts and ADD things that aren’t there.
Please stop.
2 Likes
The trouble w/ the “argument” taking place is that some folks are mistaking the meaning of “neutral” and attributing too much button-centricity to the concept. Some think that “neutral” should be SF-style button-based, whiff-punish-centric jockeying for space over long periods of time, not to speak of fireball play. These are tiny fragments of what neutral can be for those of the cast that have plentiful tools to play in such a fashion, to their advantage. Neutral is actually however a character can best utilize their tools while both players are at frame even (neither is in hit or block stun). Neutral play in KI is incredibly versatile and dynamic, varying wildly from character to character. If one wishes to play a certain playstyle, there are characters for that. If one believes that KI is “moving away from neutral play” I would suggest you become better learned in fighting games that are NOT Street Fighter.
10 Likes
I wasn’t even gonna respond its just the same no matter what you say
This very thing induces the incentive to do ‘stuff’ degeneratively. I’m sorry, but I feel like if a character has the balls to commit to flying towards me, I should be able to AA them; NOT watch them teleport or fly away mid jump in during the active frames of my AA (which was a reaction). Now I’m getting whiff punished for reacting correctly. This tells me that I have to ‘guess’ when to react correctly, which more-or-less results in me getting bodied for sitting still & being patient… which then results in me playing balls out yolo for the next 10 matches, & then people calling my character stupid as a result.. 
. I just want to be good at the game. I know I am, but I also know I’m not because of this ‘kind’ of nuetral.
1 Like
I see a lot of conflation of “neutral” and “pressure” in this thread. If you are holding Mira’s bats (or Spinal’s skulls, Hisako’s TK ORZ, whatever), you are no longer in neutral, and are now being pressured. The distinction is important if we’re going to have this conversation.
And for those who are on the “S3 feels crazier side”, which I’ll (I stress) approximate with @ZDhome’s position, I suggest perhaps try to take things a bit more lightly. Having just found and read through this thread, I think it’s been very civil, and submit that there’s very little attacking or willful misrepresentations of your opinions. It might feel like a dogpile, but it really doesn’t look that way for someone just coming into the discussion. I don’t think accusing people of bad faith or not reading/not trying to understand your position is productive.
This is an interesting conversation though - I’ll address the topic more fully once I get home and can get on my computer.
7 Likes
I think we have reached a major point in the discussion where we should re- evaluate the topic.
Others have suggested we narrow in on the discussion by defining neutral, and making sure we aren’t talking about just “pressure” in general. I agree with that.
@CHANCHULA think about what makes you the most discouraged. PRESSURE, or NEUTRAL, and then we can go from there.
(I was leaning toward “neutral”, but then the replies made me realize I was also talking about “pressure” without realizing it, so I will also take some time to think, and maybe do some in- game study when I get home, to help myself narrow my points a little better.)
2 Likes
I think the neutral in KI depends a lot on the match-up and the two players.
Some characters focus a lot more on vortexes, zoning, and committing to pressure than they do on stable footsies and whiff punishing (Fulgore, Gargos), while other characters get a great deal of emphasis in those fields (Orchid, Kim Wu). I believe the majority of the characters in the game are very much capable of the latter and see a good bit of neutral in their match-ups with each other.
But pressure in KI can be very strong no matter the character, and another variable is how good the two players are at escaping it as well as combo breaking. If one players gets knocked down and keeps getting smothered by meaty pressure, of course the match isn’t going to see a lot of neutral.
2 Likes
This! Not many people can take a step back and re-evaluate what their point is in an argument. Usually the original question gets buried as people argue about points that has nothing to do with the original post. I wish more people would do this. Makes discussion much easier
1 Like