Is KI attempting to evolve neutral play?

Wait, which move is heavy reckoning? Are we talking about Eyedol? Sorry I’m backwards with move names.

Heavy Reckoning is Gargos’s QCF+HK which is the downwards version of a Psycho Crusher, if you’re familiar with M Bison. He flies through a portal and drops down on the opponent’s head.

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Ah… This would explain my ignorance. My apologies; carry on. :joy::smirk:

I feel like I’m outmatched outnumbered and outguned at times, but simply due to the fact that my opponent can both see+react to my moves and use techniques that I can’t either avoid or break due to lack of sight to accurately determine the timings.

This has become particularly prevalent over the course of S3, with characters seemingly able to jump in at a moments notice from frustrating distances and get hitsin that then you have to just guess what hits come next.

It’s such a shame as S2 in terms of the neutral game was brilliantly well thought out, you could have stand-offs that lasted ages if you were given the right scenario. Yes there were moments of unreactable combat, but they were far rarer than they are now.

A sham that Shin Sako and Kilgore have seemingly brought everyone into this thing of throwing specials out everywhere and hope something hits, as they’re both very slow and diffiuclt to actually open people up with.

Or maybe that’s just me and my lack of sight.

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I’ll believe that when I see it.

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S3’s neutral game is largely the same as S2’s (not the least of which because 2/3rds of the characters in the game were also in S2, most of their neutral game completely intact). There’s also more or less the same amounts of unreactable combat (in fact, I’d argue there’s more reactable stuff now). I’m not sure which techniques have got you down, but if you look at it objectively there isn’t much difference between the games.


I honestly don’t see where this is coming from. The only case I can see in S3 of a char with lots of gimmicky stuff would be eyedol, with his full screen high/low and left/right mixups, but even these are pretty reactable and even when you get hit they do pitiful damage. Then there is gargos, once he gets minions, I guess, but he’s still primarily a keep away character until he gets a safe minion setup, IMO, which is getting harder and harder with each balance patch.

The rest of the cast play a much more neutral focused game than some of S2 and S1’s cast, IMO. You have kilgore straight up zoning, you have arby and rash and especially kim playing the spacing and footsies game, you have tusk with long hard hitting moves and slow movement, and you have RAAM as the game’s true grappler. Mira is the only other case of a unique neutral game, who has high low’s that are unreactable, but she goes through all the risks she does for doing so.

As for S2, well, you have TJ and shadow jago playing a whole game of high/low, left/right and grab mixup game with very long range dashing/teleporting moves and grabs which are hard to react to and deal with and you have omen, cinder and aria completely breaking the mold of the neutral game, much than gargos or mira do, IMO.

And the worst offenders in the unreactable mixups and setplay that forgoes neutral are, IMO, actually from S1, where you have spinal and fulgore, aka the oki machines, and you have sadira who spends half the match jumping and hopping around your head and crossing you up, and thunder who flies all over the screen with DPs and shadow command grabs you from half a screen away.



Bats > full screen Air dash in > unreactable cross up > mist cross up > unreactable high / low blockstring > Shadow bats to hold you still > repeat for as much as possible.

You call that neutral?

YES, they Lose health for doing it. This strategy is VERY beatable. Winning against it isn’t a problem.

The problem is that: defending against it boils down to:

Block for 20 seconds straight > dp whenever possible.

It’s not fun. Winning against it isn’t even fun. After a win, all I feel is that I hope I never have to do it again. If you could GUARANTEE that I win against ALL my matches vs Mira, I still would hate playing against her.

(This is personal preference, but it’s a preference that has been becoming more prevalent and spoken about since Season 3. And those of us who have it can’t talk about it without being smothered by negativity. )

No, I call that pressure?

Is the situation that dissimilar from, say…

Spinal: block st.HK > you’re f’ed (dash cancel into another button into +5 on block medium skull into a high/low/neutral jump mixup into shadow + instinct curse)


Fulgore: throws a fireball from anywhere on screen and if you ever try to block it, you put yourself in a 5 way mixup if he wants it

Honest question, because I don’t see how anything Mira does is different from those two characters in S2. What am I missing? What “feels different” about it to you?

I dunno if you are being facetious here or not, because defending against Mira pressure also involves smart use of shadow counter (any button xx special that isn’t bats), or trying to shadow through a projectile (button xx special that is bats). Blocking into DP is an option, sure, but the decision tree is much larger than this and it’s hard to tell if you are oversimplifying out of sarcasm or not.


That’s her reward for getting you to block something in neutral. Neutral was when you could have dodged the bats, gone through them, punished their summon, placed yourself out of airdash range, and more.


I will say it again, I KNOW it’s not the only process that happens,

But it still sucks.

Dodging bats, only to get knocked down by the airdash kick, and eat the same thing when you wake up, is also not fun.

So your problem is with mira, not with season 3, that it?

Is it any more fun for you, to block omen’s orbs and deal with his air dash crossups and fake crossups, or deal with his insane Corner pressure that has you blocking for 10 seconds only to be thrown into a combo into a reset into more pressure?

I mean, out of sadira’s “neutral”, fulgore and spinal’s unreactable okizeme centered game, thunder’s DP into stomp into dash through into DP into dash through into shadow command grab, aria’s assist call x 2 while she hovers over you into a 50/50 jump in into one chance to break into repeat same setup, or shago’s barrage of FB’s into dash through everything into crossup slides and divekicks…

Is mira really what suddenly turns KI away from SF-like neutral game in your opinion? O_o

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I’ve been seeing alot of new players just attacking nonstop after they get knocked down. So I just block and let them hang themselves. Nothing to it really, at least for the lower ranked “killers”. Now learning shin hisako against them, and it’s been comedy gold with win/loss I’ve been taking since idk wtf I’m doing yet (and neither do they, cue Benny hill)

You are seriously missing every point of this thread.


All of those characters you listed represent an evolution away from neutral play. Most of them aren’t too bad, as there are many ways to fight back against them, but the point is that they slowly TREND more and more toward degenerative neutral.

Most of the issues in the S2 and S1 characters were ADDED I’m S3!

Over the course of S3, the issue has been more prevalent.

(Also, you brought attention to Mira as an example, not me. I never said that the problem was only one character.)


i honestly cant beat any good omen player anymore without using my main. i am just getting bombarded with non stop fireballs, fake cross ups, his shadow form dodges, and his fireball shield while they run away. so i resort to catch countering their cross ups and start killing them with my resets. i tried fighting an omen yesterday as fulgore and i just couldnt do anything but block all day and fish for DP since his guess breaking was 100% lol

I’m pretty good at dispatching Omens with Sadira. :smiley: Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge… STRIKE!

Yeah, I have a better time with her too lol. I love watching them do that jumping fierce kick and I’m not even jumping. Lmao, so you think you’re smart? Naww

It’s very interesting to see people have difficulties with characters whose pressure is very susceptible to shadow counters. Especially Omen and Mira. Active defense and movement is neutral in itself. If you watch KIWC, every top player has to use neutral and spacing to win.

The fallacy is trying to compare SF style neutral to KI.

They’re different games and air mobility and movement is a significant factor in KI. Walking back and forth to catch whiff punishes isn’t as viable in this game because it’s faster. Doesn’t mean that doesn’t happen, just means there’s other things to incorporate as well.

Neutral isn’t a universal definition, it changes based on the game and is never one-dimensional.

Utilizing all your defensive and movement options is key to defense. Relying only on DP or one option is limiting your potential as a player.


Most of the issues in the S2 and S1 characters were ADDED I’m S3!

They were? Enlighten me, please. Out of all the things I mentioned, I believe only the follow ups to thunder’s DP were added in S3, and before he could DP into DP, which was much much worse.

Also, no, I mentioned Mira along with a dozen other characters or so, you were the one who specifically picked out Mira and used her as the example to what you find not fun.

I don’t think I’m missing the points, man, I just think you’re not making the right ones =S I am trying to understand it… I just really don’t see it.


This, this so much!