Is juggle-breaking too safe?

is it just me or does it seem like the window to Counter Break a Combo Breaker in juggles seem bugged or too short?

There will be times where I know my opponent is going to break one of my juggle manuals and I Counter break as fast as I possibly can after the manual but it doesnt catch his Combo break attempt. The stupid thing is my opponent will be at advantage because they either get the Break or the Counter breaker recovery is longer than the lockout reset on landing.

Anyone else finding this?

Yeah, this is because juggle hits are manuals, and follow manual rules. Basically, you can only counter break your manual from the moment it actually hits, onward. Since your opponent can get timed lock out during startup of your manuals, this makes it so it’s harder for them to break, easier to get a timing lock-out, but also harder for you to actually input the CB in time.

You’ll easily get a timing lock-out and then your CB leaves you punishable, or if the opponent manages a break in frame 1, your CB probably won’t work and you’ll get broken.

Not really that good of an idea to go for CB’s on juggles, IMO (with the occasional exception of moves that are very easy to see and break, and which thanks to their long animation are also very easy to input CB on frame 1 while already being a good bait), best to switch around timings and strengths and save CB’s for opportunities where they’re more easily applied and with greater chance of success.


as usually, thanks for your respectful and informative assistance @Skryba


You’re more than welcome, m8 =D

Also, knowing that you play wulf, and that the only really obvious break chance for his juggles is the c.LK flipout, I know why you’re feeling this. It’s not always possible to extend juggles with c.MK/HK > ragged edge, and you do want, in most matchups, to go for the flipout as often as possible, and in those cases it becomes too obvious you’ll try for the c.LK.

My advice: go to the lab and try out plinking c.LK into the CB. It’s what I have done, and it does work, even if tricky to get the timing.

Program the dummy to break on frame 1 and simply do running uppercut > c.LK~MP

Thanks to the amazing new breaker options since S3, you can get CB from LK+MP, so plinking becomes an option =) (I just realized I’m assuming, maybe wrongfully, that you play on an arcade stick like I do =S on a pad I’m not sure how this will help, if at all… Sorry.)

I was wowonderi about this myself. Thanks for posting this and thanks for the answer from Skryba.

I play on pad, but I didnt not know plinking was an option. Will do as you suggested and see if I can execute lk+mp to get the CB. Still may help. Too bad they didnt assign flipout to a mk or hk (im sure they have their reasons). that way there would be more “2 way interaction” with lk its obviously tight and IMO, CB has advantage.

Didn’t they add a 5 frame buffer in one of the recent patches? Or has that not been added yet? I remember Keits talking about it.

Humm I don’t know exactly what you mean. Afaik CB’s are active since f1 you execute them, and they will only work from f1 onwards. Meaning, if your opponent attempts to break one frame earlier than you input CB, then you’ll get combo broken or you’ll get a lockout and whiff your CB.

@AddictedToKaos I’m pretty sure it’s intended to make it so you always know that if you want to break a flipout you do so with light breaker across the board. It’d be too good of an option, to soft reset your juggle ender with a flipout, IMO, if you didn’t have an obvious break chance there. What we need to do is mixup our juggles, extend them to get a lockout, and then go for the flipout, or optionally go for the CB if we’re consistently getting broken on the flipout.

This further encourages the 2-way interaction than several flipout options would, and different characters with different strength flipouts would force even more MU knowledge on a game and especially on a system (the whole breaker system) which already are pretty demanding in that regard.

> We now enforce a minimum of 24 frames of hitstun when your opponent attempts to counterbreaker you, in addition to the 30 frame maximum we were already enforcing to ensure that counterbreaker attempts are punishable. (This means that you wont see grounded opponents popping out of hitstun early when you counterbreak from certain moves, making them feel much more consistent. )

Is this what you were talking about? Only for grounded combos apparently.

They added the 5f buffer input back at the start of season 3 is I remember. I think it was that big list of patch notes for S3 launch.

I was reffering to this:

“Added a 5-frame buffer window to the Counter Breaker input, so that you have a 5 frame window to input a 1s"t frame Counter Break attempt. This removes the need to manually time a 1st frame Counter Breaker vs someone inputting a 1st frame Breaker attempt. (In general, you will still have to input your counter break before your opponent inputs his break attempt to succeed. But for manuals in particular, it was unreasonably difficult to input your counter break before an opponent who is also trying to break immediately. You may have noticed this in cases such as Tusk’s skewer or Rash’s LP juggles after a launcher. With this buffer in place, you will have a much easier time beating your opponent to the break and counter breaking successfully.)”

So basically you have five frames to input a counter breaker on a manual/juggle before it actually hits so that you get first frame counter breaker.

That’s relative to the animation when you attempt CB. We already had the 30f minimum recovery animation from attempting a CB, now we also have a minimum of 24f hitstun during which the defensive player is in recovery when his opponent attempts a CB.

@SithLordEDP oh yeah, sorry I didn’t get you were talking about this. That’s why the plinking I mentioned above actually works. Thing is, this gets kind hard to do with lights, where the animation is really fast (4, 5, 6f and such), so if you don’t plink you might not actually get the CB input before the hit actually comes out, unless you’re really fast with you LK/LP > MP+MK input. On a stick this is kinda hard to do, IMO, without plinking, as you’ll be using at least one finger for both inputs, which means you’ll press LK, lift your finger, switch over to another button and press that one. With the new LK+MP input not only does it shorten the time required for that, it actually gives you the chance of plinking, in the case of LK > CB.

I get what you are saying. I obviously lack a lot of the technical frame stuff to understand this. I will just trust IG did what they felt would work best out of all options for flipout.

My initial thought were if instead of lk across the board for flipout it was mk across the board(something with more startup/active frames) Would it not be more consistent to land a CB against a break?

Well, it would make it easier to input the CB in those 5frames you have before hitstun because the moves animation would be longer, but it would also imply a bigger hitstun, so breaks on reaction would become somewhat easier. Always 2 sides to a coin :stuck_out_tongue:

But I think lights are the best choice, mainly because they have very low damage output in juggles, and you don’t want to give flipout options and extra damage, IMO.

It’s not really necessary to plink the input, particularly not on stick. You can just mash all three buttons (LK, MP, MK) at the same time using two fingers. The new 5f buffer means you can hit the mediums a little earlier now, but I’ve personally never had any issue with getting the counter to come out first frame on manuals when hitting all the buttons simultaneously. If the opponent got themselves timing locked out right before the manual then you’re SOL either way, but if they’re breaking on the manual they’re breaking as you hit the counter breaker buttons as well.

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Oh, yeah, I guess I can, but then again, mashing 3 buttons is harder work than plinking one into another, IMO xD