Eh? They changed medium air-ORZ? What’d they do to it?
Sorry, should have been more clear; the hitstun fix to medium and heavy TK-ORZ is what I was referencing. I didn’t mention the heavy version because it doesn’t play into my scenario, but I should have for the sake of clarity. Thanks for keeping me on my toes
They upped the hitstun on a recap on it and the heavy so they can combo into themselves.
Edit: Damn I started writing this before I started eating, I remembered to finish the post and checked to make sure Marble hadn’t clarified, looks like I posted right after.
The love among us Hisako players is just fantastic
Ah, thanks. That’s interesting. If the scaling is still turned up, then it may wind up being more of something you toss in just to try and get an orange lockout - I always found repeated TK-ORZ’s to be pretty easy to break, and they’re not particularly damaging anymore.
I personally tend to prefer the simple influence or counter hit resets to be more effective. They’re a lot easier to hit consistently as well compared to repeated TK’s.
But more tech is always good - look forward to seeing the video @Marbledecker
Interesting bit of information I found whilst I was researching the mechanics behind manuals after linkers. It is mostly bad news for Hisako, but their is an interesting silver lining.
For openers (and previously for linkers in s1) the manual cancel frames (that is, the additional frame advantage you have to perform manuals by cancelling the last frames of recovery) is a standardised 5 frames. This means a special move which is +4 will give you 9 frames to perform a normal move as a manual. This is pretty much irrelevant on Hisako however as all of her openers are massively negative on hit so you need to cancel into a double/linker.
However, through a bit of testing on Hisako and extensive testing on Spinal I have determined that linkers grant you a specific amount of frame advantage to allow you to do any normal of equal or lower strength that would be available at the linker’s range providing that the manual is slower than the fastest button of higher strength that would hit at that range (quite the sentence). This means that, for example, Spinal can get all of his medium buttons to manual after a medium linker except crouching medium kick, which has the same startup as his close heavy attacks and so would allow them to be performed also.
For Hisako this mostly affects her medium linkers, since lights are fairly equal in speed and short ranged and heavies allow you to do all strengths. However it is important to point out that heavy ORZ linker does not appear to grant you enough frame advantage to do far standing manuals, as they are considerably slower than close ones and the linker always leaves you at close range, meaning you would have a very large window in which to land any manual (making breaking it not only a guess on the strength but also the timing).
Medium ORZ linker appears to grant a total manual window of 7 frames, meaning you can land any manual with 6 or less frames of startup (as the hitbox actually comes out the frame after the last frame of startup). As close standing medium punch and kick both have 5 frames of startup they should be quite easy links (by manual standards) but since medium ORZ pushes the opponent to far range neither move will come out unless you opponent is cornered, and you will be left with your 7 frame far mediums which won’t combo. Your only medium option which is independent of range is crouching medium kick, which has 6 frames of startup and so is a 1 frame link. The two far mediums and crouching punch all have the same startup as close heavies and so they would be doable in the corner if it was any longer.
Medium influence linker leaves you at far range even in the corner, so they can allow you to do far medium normals since you won’t be able to put yourself at a range to break the manual rules. This is also necessary to set up ambiguous manuals with a wrath counter hit, as you need to use crouching medium punch to bring the opponent close enough to get a heavy normal to manual and the others may even push you out of the range of lights. This does actually allow you to get a sweep after a medium linker but this isn’t unique to Hisako and it ends the combo without a cashout.
As you can see, the combo rules don’t really favour Hisako for performing manuals in the traditional sense, as she can’t after openers and struggles after linkers. However due to the large difference in speed between her close and far heavy manuals there is the aforementioned silver lining - or rather, a bronze one…
Aganos’ sheer size means that at any point on the screen performing a medium influence linker will leave you in range for a close standing heavy manual. Whereas this would normally be impossible even in the corner, Aganos breaks the linker rules on himself by being so massive and allows a heavy manual to be performed here.
Wow. That is pretty significant.
Thanks for putting this work in.
Interesting. I could have sworn (seriously, like 98.3% certain on this) that I’ve hit opponents with far standing HP after a heavy linker though. Pretty sure I’ve seen that manual more than a few times before off influence linked.
Traveling now and won’t be back for a week, but really want to try that out now.
You misunderstood, you can get far normals off an influence linker, in fact except against aganos that is all you can get.
Heavy manuals after influence linker are super trivial, actually (probably because they want you to be able to do st.HK which has way more startup than other normals). I did notice it being really tight to do manuals after medium ORZ in my training. I think it’s kind of an unfortunate byproduct of the manual restriction system… by definition, most medium and light linkers lead to really hard manuals, because those buttons are only 1 or 2f slower than the strength higher.
Kinda wish they could come up with a solution for this internally (some extra buffer if you press a normal that should combo or something), I dunno. Any solution to making the links not 1f is probably pretty finicky/inelegant.
You know… come to think of it, once I get around to making videos again…
@MBABanemobius - Your homework would make a mighty fine informative video, should you decide that is permissible. I have a channel going, mainly for Hisako related videos. I’d basically toss that stuff around in the lab, capture it, and do a voice over. Or maybe we can both provide video? I dunno.
You would of course be credited in full for the information therein. What do you say sir?
Yeah sounds fine man.
@Infilament since far heavy punch has 15 frames of startup and kick has 17 it makes it a 3 frame link at least, in manual terms this is quite easy. With the medium ORZ linker you have to do a 1 frame link on the cr.mk unless you are in the corner. I also find that unlike with other linkers, if you press the manual too early you get an AD rather than nothing which for some reason seems to make getting the actual link harder.
I don’t know why this is harder, maybe there is a small buffer on manuals like in sfv, and when you get nothing after a linker/opener it is because you were too early for that even. You have enough frame advantage to actually do all the manuals but maybe the AD window overlaps this buffer window? It’s probably just my imagination, but it would be good if this could be worked out (especially as it would mean links are actually easier than they appear).
While working on Hisako in practice mode the other day, I found that I was consistently unable to get cr. MK->ORZ to combo when wrath was low. I’d previously always assumed that this was simply me failing to cancel the normal into ORZ in time, but the consistency with which I was failing to get a combo made me wonder:
Does wrath (and accordingly, counter hit status) make cr. MK combo-able, or is this normal always capable of linking straight in ORZ. I’ve always assumed the latter, but my experience yesterday had me questioning it. Would like to get a definitive answer on this.
Cr.MK is my favorite button!
I’m going to see if I have the same experience in the lab.
Lol. It’s every Hisako’s favorite button. All KI normals are special cancelable so I’m pretty sure I’m wrong, but it was just weird that I didn’t once manage to hit it into combo while having low wrath.
I have no problems canceling cr.MK into light or medium ORZ with no wrath (and medium goes plenty far enough to always be in range). Heavy ORZ needs the counter-hit bonus though.
Do you think it might be heavily reliant on spacing?
This is it. My default ORZ button is always heavy, so this is why I couldn’t hit it. Also probably explains a large portion of the cr. MK->ORZ hit confirms that I’ve missed over the life of the character…
Man, it’s really going to be a pain in the ■■■ fixing the muscle memory for that. Have had way too many combo opportunities missed for not being able to confirm off cr. MK
In any case, thanks for the assist Infil!
It’ll be easier than you think. Ten minutes in training mode and 20 matches later and you’ll be totally fine.
Tottaly looking out for this button when we do more sets. Be Warned. LOL!