Let’s say that both sides have plenty of tools to put pressure one on the other. But I think Riptor is in favor during neutral situations.
Well I’d say no for two reasons.
First is because when you’re finaly doing damage, you’ll want to go for MAXIMUM damage. I’m more thinking about keeping the pressure on than “what should I do when I’ll lost this pressure ?”
Second reason is about this specific SC on jumping firebreath: Actualy Riptor can react to it by blocking, grabbing our even attacking before the first hit of Hisako’s shadow ORZ.
What I usually do is to try it at the begining of a game just to see if my oponent is aware of that. If he knows he can react to that, I don’t use it again.
There may be other moments to use SC but the more predictable against riptor is that jumping flamebreath. Then if you want to SC Hisako, you better keep an eye on her wrath metter before doing it (unless she’s doing shadow ORZ, which can’t be canceled into catch-counter).
Doesn’t CDJr like to go for 10-15% combos throughout a match instead of maximum damage to manage resources on at least Maya?
True, which is why I am asking if it holds merit. Would need to see/hear how honest tries at it would do.
Let’s be honest here, a Counter-Grappler isn’t in a match to end it quickly or go on the hard offensive. Is it trying to keep too much pressure that’s leading players into Riptor’s sweet spot?
Thanks for the heads up on the SC. To be clear though, do the jumping Firebreaths have to be deep/meaty or can one be relatively early with the timing?
Well he’s playing Maya and I know with her you can decide to not go for the maximum damage ender and keeping the dagues meter for a “free” opening. That’s an offensive option. 10-15% combos does lower the risk of being breaking, and it’s often ends with a hard knockdown ender… to keep the pressure going. That’s why I said I’d rather use my shadow meter against Riptor when I’m in middle of a combo.
But, there are other situations when I choose to save my meter. For exemple against Jago, I’d prefer end my combo right before he gets his instinct and then use all my metter on the next combo to end his life bar before he can gain his life back.
Another exemple is against TJ Combo. Having at least one shadow and instinct ready to be activated is a GREAT help when he comes back to life.
And that’s only my point of view of course. I know for exemple a lot of good Hisako players often goes for the hard knockdown ender that does less damages, but I personnaly prefer to go for the damage ender, not only because of the damages, but because I’m using the fact that my opponent doesn’t have time to think about what to do on his wake up.
That’s exactly why most of us consider Riptor a really bad match up for Hisako. You can’t counter her flames and if you’re too defensive, she will just spam these and neutralize all your grab options (grab, possession, influence).
I’m not sure to understand well this question (I’m not a native english speaking… )
But maybe you’ll find your answer with these informations:
The jumping firebreath is a 3 hits attacks
First hit start when the hitbox connect to the opponent (not when the button is pressed)
So you don’t really have to care about the timing of the flames, but the timing of your jump. Now it’s hard for me to explain this without a visual exemple
If I remember correctly this game has left-right block protection, where if you are in blockstun from one direction you can block a crossup in the other direction without switching. This is distinct from high-low protection, where being hit by both at the same time is protected but you can be hit by a low during the blockstun of an overhead, for example.
This means that ANY tail flip reset can be countered, as a reset inherently means that you are out of hit or blockstun.
While we wait on some Riptor blockstrings, I played with one last night (LK > Predator LK>Repeat) and found that you can Light-Influence after the Predator LK before the standing LK starts the block string again. This will work well when you need some wrath meter and the Ratpor won’t stop smacking your stick. Gotta love that 2 frame goodness.
There are those situations where both characters are far away and often Riptor uses her fast run + flames.
Since flames are “projectiles”, I tried to do the shadow ORZ (which is projectile unvulnerable) on reaction to her run… and it worked.
Word; often when I expect flames (or sometimes flame carpet) and have the meter to burn I’ll shadow ORZ, but I never thought about doing it as a reaction to her run-in because her run can have several outcomes… though in retrospect that seems like less of a factor because of the nature of this match up, where flames are often the better option for Riptor, so I should be expecting them more often than not.
Riptor’s jump+HP is active as balls, so the timing isn’t particularly strict to get it to hit meaty. Flame carpet->meaty jump+HP is a pretty standard oki tool against Hisako. The flame carpet is active long enough and has a wide enough hitbox that Hisako often can’t backdash out of it, and the meaty jump+HP keeps her from jumping it as well. After that you’re basically stuck in heavy blockstun awaiting Riptor’s next move.
While I don’t think the match is anywhere near 8-2, I do think it’s solidly in Riptor’s favor. Riptor’s pressure on knockdown just mauls Hisako, and enough of her options are projectile based that countering is at best a rarely useful tool. The real terror of the MU isn’t that Riptor can’t be countered - in fact, aside from jump+HP most of her uncounterable pressure options aren’t going to lead to massive damage. The issue is that Riptor has enough oki options that counter is rarely the “good” choice. Meaty flame overheads (also active as all heck), meaty jump+HP, dash->throw, talon rake->fireball…Riptor has a ton of tools that will kill you slowly, and enough of them are projectile based that the Hisako is being conditioned throughout the fight to not use or try to rely upon her counters. That in turn allows the Riptor player to occasionally throw things at you that most characters wouldn’t dare try against Hisako. Once she’s got the momentum, she’s free to nitpick you to death, until the moment when she says “■■■■■ it” and just throws a counterable mix-up at you that you aren’t ready for.
Her pressure on Riptor is decent, but just decent IMO. I find that Riptor’s back run and her options off of it serve her very well in avoiding some of Hisako’s typical oki games. The ghost girl can definitely still mess up a Riptor who doesn’t know how to properly defend herself on wakeup, but the strength of her oki against Riptor is nowhere near as dominating as Riptor’s pressure against Hisako.
I haven’t ever really relied on shadow ORZ to deal with run, but it does make a certain amount of sense. Riptor’s head butt from run would blow it up, but the more likely options off of run are definitely throw or flame breath. I’ll have to start incorporating that into this MU to see how it works.
edit: the filter on these new forums is a touch, shall we say, overzealous. B-u-t-t and b-l-o-w shouldn’t be “bleeped” in my humble opinion. The former is not a bad word for anyone above 6 years old, and while the latter could have less than wholesome applications, I can’t say I’ve seen much talk of BJ’s on these forums in the past. Just saying
What in my opinion would really help in this match up is improve Hisako shadow counter. Once Riptor J. HP is neutralized this MU would become more manageable. Right now imo it’s definatly a 8-2.
First off, @STORM179 thanks so much for that ridiculously sweet post!
Now THIS:
This is exactly the type of thing I’ve been asking for! Thank you SO MUCH! Despite all of that being correct and the setup for Hisako looking kind of hopeless, I will play with this scenario in the lab at some point in the next few days (work is crazy busy at present) and see what options I might find besides standing there begging for a tick throw.
OK… I’ve had some chances on and off over the weeks to play with this scenario.
Riptor has to time this setup correctly; if she’s late on the jump-in flame, Hisako can hit her out of the sky with a J+LK (a highly under-used normal, in my opinion). That being said, it’s pretty hard for Riptor to ■■■■■ up the timing; I practiced it for about 5 straight minutes and had the timing down pat where Hisako couldn’t jump out/away.
When correctly timed by Riptor, Hisako absolutely must block it all. However, that doesn’t mean she has to eat a tick throw.
Riptor’s J+HP hits three times; after the third hit, you might throw out an Influence grab. This will give her throw-invulnerable frames, beat Riptor’s throw, and give you either a Knockdown or a Combo, depending on your Wrath situation. You might decide to throw out a catch-counter, which would be ideal if she decided to hit you with a normal rather than throw you. You might even decide to toss out a normal throw, which would tech Riptor’s attempt at a tick throw, or nab her by the prehistoric lapels if she was attempting to mix you up by baiting a catch-counter.
The trouble is, however, that we’re still eating a 50/50. If we decide to throw or command grab, and Riptor decides to toss out a fast normal, we’re gonna eat combo damage. If we decide to catch counter and she decided to throw, we’re gonna get dino-mouth all up on our faces.
So unless one of you sexy genius Hisako players can whip-up an option select, we’re gonna have to rely on making reads in this scenario.
Now I know what I’m playing with next! Thank you! It’s actually a long time coming for me… @NexusFX was blowing me up hard with that while we were playing practice matches @CEO.
Also, I’d love to play a set with you sometime. Our mirror match was really fun
Word. Hisako’s dash never ceases to amaze me. I was playing VS. a Jago and found out by accident that her dash low-profiles Jago’s Wind Kick. I was absolutely delighted.
Awesome! If I see you online in the next few days, I’ll send you a message and see if you’re available.
OK! Got to play with this briefly last night. Dashing, as you suspected, is really good here. Hisako’s hurtbox shrinks when she dashes, which allows for a lot of leniency in terms of timing; you can dash fairly late into Riptor’s flame jump and still clear the hitbox. If I dashed early into the J+HP animation, and spacing worked out, I was able to recover and hit Riptor with a close-normal on her way down.
Another option, which is far less forgiving with timing but nonetheless consistent if timed correctly, is Cr.HP. You pretty much have to know the second jump is coming, or react to it very quickly, but it does provide a knockdown if you manage to pull it off. And we all know how Hisako loves her knockdowns…
Seems like she have solutions for every situation, problem is that we still have to guess what’s coming next.
You’re down and lying into Riptor’s flame carpet. You know she’s gonna jump+HP, and then you have to guess what will she do next:
A) grab ? -> solution: jump to avoid or tech grab or command grab
B) rapid normals ? -> solution: grab or catch counter
C) jump+HP ? -> dash forward or quick Cr+HP
It’s a tough road for us… lots of situations in which Hisako relies on hard reads. Riptor really brings that challenge to the forefront.
As an aside, I think I found a sweet safe-jump setup last night. I’m going to test it out against a human today, rather than doing my best with the d-u-m-m-y. If it’s solid, I’ll post that ■■■■ all up in the Tech Thread
I can’t believe 