First bad match up ive found

Never said he is unbeatable - just that he is strong.

And as far as i know teleport works as a wakeup/reversal

And i dont talk about baiting or stuff cause i know that every dp can be baited.

His overhead has a huge hitbox and can even anti air recap you.

You know that he can cash out without recapturing…

I just listed what he is crazy good at - he has basically no limits and no weakness cause in either stance he has a wakeup, in either stance he has mixup and so on.

I dont wanted to point out how to basically play a fighting game - spacing footsies and baiting

I wanted to point out that eyedol is extremely good (many times imo the best) in every area and every stance.

Teleport is a reversal, but has no invincibility. Proper meaty attacks will beat it. Every DP can be baited, but only Eyedol has a limited number of DP attempts before he changes into a different (weaker) character. You said that Eyedol has no weakness, but this is not the case. Mage form’s weaknesses are a slow walk speed, lacklustre damage, no serious reversal options, and can’t reliably start an offense. Berserker’s weakness is that he will eventually become Mage. You can exploit this by forcing Eyedol to use special moves as Berserker as often as possible, and keeping Mage under pressure and not allowing him the space necessary to use his zoning tools or his b.HP to wake up the other head.

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Eyedol has almost overwhelming strengths, but that ‘No weaknesses’ thing is patently false, especially when were talking about Mage.

I’d go so far as to say that Mage practically is a weakness. Warrior, however, has some glaring weaknesses too - people are just overplaying his strengths to the point where their ability to see it’s weaknesses are hindered.

Warrior has amazing rushdown, but good footsies? Not so much. His Warrior buttons are good, really fast, but their range is sort of limited compared to many others. Eyedol’s shared K buttons are not good. The lights are stubbier than his contemporaries, while MK and HK are hella slow. They’ve got decent range, but their recovery is obscene, so if they don’t connect and cancel, you’ve got an opening.

Either stance seems to beg commitment. Warrior wants to climb all over you until something connects. He has trouble being a bully and getting to plus frames without taking risks - he is easily SCd in a lot of cases, and M/H Clobber have a gap in between the hits that you can fit a DP or parry through. Hes gonna jump a lot, bet. While Warrior j.HP is kind of insane, he is in fact AAble - its just gonna take a little practice for consistency.

Mage has a reversal, sure. But it’s garbage. It is a far cry from a viable wakeup, because it moves BACKWARDS, away from the situation your waking up at. Often it will whiff as a wakeup, at which point is the same as whiffing a DP. All of Mages zoning tools have insufferable recovery, so if you jump LP Bolt or dash past a meteor, you should have your opening. His standing projectile normals (incl. b.MP) can be low profiled. If you have a teleport, all of sudden he’s better off sticking to face-punch, because it’ll get him out of the disgustingly tilted matchup quicker than his specials. Additionally, Mage does wholly forgettable damage.

Honestly, after the last week of Eyedol, I’m kinda hoping they tone down Warrior and buff Mage a bit. Not a whole lot in either direction, but more buffing Mage than nerfing Warrior. Warrior has a couple of moves that are just marginally too good, but Mage has a lot that isn’t good at all. This should be addressed. I think fixing Warrior could be accomplished with some relatively minor tweaks though, like reducing blockstun on j.HP. That’s all besides the point though…

Sorry, been typing at work between cars, so I may have lost focus in there somewhere.

I’d like to think RAAM wins that matchup fairly easily.

It seems like you are playing a different character

Warrior Stance:

St.mp - 5f startup with gargos cr.mp range
St.hp - beats nearly every other St.hp in terms of range and is 8f startup
Cr.mp - 5f startup very good range and freaking +4 on block
St.hk - very good range (a bit less than St.hk from rash) and 9f startup and 21f recovery (st.hk jago has 20f)
F+mp - godlike tool in every way

All warrior specific buttons are freaking +on block! Except for cr.hp and f+mp

Mage Stance:

St.mp - godlike range with 9f startup and 17! f recovery
St.hp - even more godlike range though 29f recovery
St.hk, cr.mk are very good buttons

The recovery is quicker or the same than jagos buttons - jagos St.mp is already pretty good but compared to warrior St.mp its …

The pips in mage are crazy good - triple meteor is so strong.
Lightning mixup is very good full screen - he is far from weak in mage form

Teleport backwards has no hurtbox until the projectile hitbox apperas so its invincible - its an option

Warrior J.hp can be pressed on its way up and is still +on block - try to anti air him on reaction without a dp when pressing on the way up… Good luck

To me no arguments for a weakness brought up - imo warrior is stronger than the already strong mage form

But as always every opinion is different - so im out

Frame data in a vacuum supports your opinion, and you conveniently ignore everything that opposes your opinion. Cool story.

You don’t have to agree with me, that’s not what this is about. You can stay free to Eyedol and maintain your belief that he has no weaknesses.

Everyone else, I hope you can apply some of that info. Mage is wholly boppable, unless you’re RAAM or maybe Aganos. Warrior is a bit too tough, in my opinion, but nothing a little tweaking can’t fix. He’s far from unfair.

Good footsies are defined by range/space covered and frame data and if present special properties like crushes lows or recaps

So cool story from your part

But i would love to see how you take advantage of your mentioned weaknesses like his not so good footsies or weak mage vs a good eyedol player with a character that is not eyedol - maybe you could upload a clip

Frame data on its own is meaningless. A 5f startup won’t win you footsies if you misspaced it or pressed it at the wrong time. It’s a very esoteric part of the game, and I outlined that his Warrior buttons are good (MP and HP). It’s his universal buttons that aren’t great. They aren’t necessarily bad, but not good either. What I was trying to illustrate is that you’ll often find yourself committed to rushing down or hard zoning, and not playing too much traditional footsies. He can do so, but he can be hella outdone there.

And Mage dies to crouching. True story. His zoning tools can’t keep you fullscreen for long, he wants to control space at about 3squares length. And it crumbles to teleports.

Really? I outline weakness for y’all to mull over, and you pull “pics or didn’t happen?”

I’m trying to be civil with you. It would benefit the discussion if you were mind your sodium levels. I get that Eyedol bopped you real good and you aren’t over it. I also just gave you a bunch of material to take to the lab. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but GG fella.

EDIT: It’s probably a little soon for there to be “good Eyedol players”. Less than 2 weeks? We’re all still figuring him out. Chill.

EDIT 2: To address specific points raised:

Filling the screen with hotboxes is always good. That doesn’t make his fullscreen hi-low any less telegraphed, and just because something can hit you doesn’t make it valuable unto itself. His fullscreen game is good for building Warrior pips, and little else. He can do this unblockable, which sounds good, until you realize that you only got about 11% off of it. Could be worse, sure. But it is t good.

You said “he can” press j.HP on the way up. You forgot to mention that he CANNOT press it on the way down. It’s still stupid good though.

b.3K Teleport is invincible. It also moves backwards and has DPesque recovery. Yes it’s an option. It’s not a very good one though.

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Don’t sweat it. No need arguing with a comment like “this character has no weaknesses”. It has only been two weeks, learning Eyedol is still fresh with the community so its obvious lots of players will lose that match. But, I have noticed striking similarities in the gameplan of some players, so it has given me ways to deal with him.

As much as I wanted to believe Jago would dominate this matchup because he has a true dp, this isn’t the case as it can easily be baited. However, my secondary - RAAM dominated the few matches I had against Eyedol. Essentially, no Eyedol can do the bogus jumping heavy against RAAM unless they enjoy being picked apart by kryll. Sure, mage in theory can beat RAAM, but it is fairly easy to block after a while. Not to mention, lots of players prefer warrior. So, even if they wanted to distance RAAM with mage, they can’t spam lighting/meteorite too long as it will cause a swap with frequent usage. So that leaves warrior as the best tool, which requires them to get up close… which isn’t the best idea against RAAM, especially with a full instinct meter.

From the few matches I had against solid Eyedol players and some spammy, I managed to body them. Which leads me to believe that the right RAAM player is a weakness.

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Patience and shadow counters, you’ll find yourself with a win.

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Not also can RAAM dominate warrior stance, he can simply Kryll dash through Mage’s specials. It does get rather difficult when Eyedol’s in instinct.

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if i press it at a wrong time than its no character weakness its a player weakness

And on a sidenote - where did i say i lost to him? I barely even play the game anymore. I played him for myself and played vs a friends eyedol and realized that he is stupid good.

i say stuff that is stupid about the characters especially when i play them

Nothing more lol

Wait… are you… playing a different character?

Of his six crouching moves, five are negative. Of his standing moves, about half are.

When we throw in specials it becomes, like… eight of twenty-three moves have any + frames. I forget the exact number, but it was the majority that was -1 or worse.

Unless frame data is flat wrong, which my experience has been it is not.

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10/10

Though I find it sad that’s the common view. I really enjoy Mage stance and find it as delightful as Warrior.

All of that explains a lot. I see now, thanks for the clarification.

I guess I was trying to be helpful at the wrong person, and for the wrong reasons. Everyone else, enjoy! And let’s keep the constructive conversation going - it’s good for all of us, if improvement is what were after, anyway.

ALSO: KEITS CONFIRMS AGREEMENT W NEED TO NERF WARRIOR J.HP! So, stay tuned and backdash there. Hopefully a reduction in blockstun. It’s annoying I guess, but I’d hate to see the crossup go. If it must, it must though.

warrior specific buttons is what i wrote

So

St.mp
St.hp
Cr.mp
Cr.hp
F+mp

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Yeah, that’s 2/5 at plus frames (0 is not plus). Not remotely everything, but let’s keep emphasizing hyperbole and failed arguments over moving a productive conversation forward. You outlined your insistence on sticking with your opinion, and that’s great in debate club. Thing is, opinions can in fact be wrong or flat out invalid (especially when based on flawed evidence).

Why do you want to lose this MU so bad? Plenty of folks around trying to suss out the holes in Eyedol’s game, and you insist on clinging to 2 buttons with plus frames and calling them everything - what is that?

For those really having a conversation, including the OP:
What about Rash would give Eyedol such a hard time? Mage seems like it would probably crumble to Zipline, and overall his above-average hurtbox isn’t doing him any favors, but what else could Rash abuse Eyedol with? Can Rash abuse Warrior, or is it more about waiting out Warrior and pressuring Mage so it can’t switch back?

Against eyedol, when I see his instincts full and if I score a hard knockdown, I just start running away before he wakes up like a bomb is about to detonate cuz that Instinct mode is some DBZ sheet.

I do agree that Eyedol is extremely good. He definitely came out of the cooker a little hot, IMO.

Warrior is incredibly strong, even without pip cancels. And despite this, jump HP is so dominant that I think there is little reason to do anything else from many ranges. But the devs have said on twitter that j.HP will see some tweaks in the next patch. I personally think it needs to lose like 15-20 frames of advantage (no jump normal should be +25, or +3 or so if done instantly off the ground), and the hitbox needs to be quite a bit shorter so anti-airing it without a DP is not so impossible. The reason anti-airing it is so hard is because the hitbox swings really fast, in addition to it being really big. So even if you press a beefy anti-air button, you just have to randomly hope that it coincides with when jump HP swings into your button during your anti-air’s active frames. If you’re wrong, you get hit (and comboed).

This is the hitbox for jump HP, which swings around him in just a few frames. You have no hope of hitting his hittable box, which is way in the back, so your only hope is to out-prioritize the red box, which is very hard to do if your anti-air is only active for 2 or 3 frames.

Warrior is still very strong without jump HP though. Pip cancels are really good and his normals are very difficult to contest. But I can see that being a bit more manageable if you don’t have to worry about jumping HP putting you in 30 frames of block stun and is maybe anti-airable.

I do think mage is the weaker form, despite still being good. A lot of characters struggle to contest the zoning, and you should have pips available most of the time because command grab in warrior is very good (better than Gargos devil divide, as far as range, startup, mixup potential goes). His main weakness is a slow reversal (but still a reversal!) and low damage on average, so you can take some hits from mage and not die. The scary thing is, I think smart mage play involves not entering the combo system too often and instead just building pips for warrior by finishing combos with teleport. You accept that you won’t be doing damage to your opponent and instead front-load the warrior stance.

And I think his instinct is, by several orders of magnitude, the best in the game. I even made a thread about how to deal with instinct shadow DP, which is challenging for many characters, requires meter for almost all characters, and is missable in a fight because the window is small. Even without this, you basically have to deal with 15 seconds of warrior with even more far-range button options, and the character also can’t be zoned. It’s very strong.

Basically, I think both stances are very good (warrior better, though), so the random stance switching doesn’t really impact him all that much. In fact, every time he switches stances, he has an opportunity to freeze the screen and maybe punish something you were doing… stance switching can actually be good, even if it’s to the stance you don’t want!

I don’t think warrior really struggles to get through zoning that much (maybe with worse j.HP he will struggle slightly more? but he only has to really get to half screen before he is a threat, and he has a short jump and a run), and mage kinda sucks up close but it’s more manageable than characters without a reversal (Kan-Ra, Spinal, Gargos, etc). And he has instinct pop as his ultimate reversal, which Spinal and Gargos don’t really have. And when he’s at the peak of his momentum, he is probably the best character in the game.

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