Ep. VII (The Force Awakens) story discussion - MASSIVE SPOILERS

SPOILER FREE DISCUSSION FOUND HERE: The Force Awakens (no spoilers)

Well I thought that since we have a spoiler-free discussion thread already, one that was open to discussing the finer points of the film, including spoilers, was warranted.

For those that have not seen the film, HIT BACK AND GET OUT NOW.

So let’s start. Note: this is LONG.

I enjoyed the film, but I think it tried to do too much in its running time and cover too many elements just to set things up when it didn’t really need to. It also recycled some similar elements from previous Star Wars films for the sake of… recycling them for no good reason that I can see.

My primary issue with the film was that it didn’t give any time for the characters to breathe and just “be” in their element. A great example is when Han Solo gets onboard the Falcon. He never gets a moment to revel in that. Finn at a later point in the film mentions a moment (When Rey first sees him) to Rey that wasn’t held long in the first place, making it hard for anyone to connect it back to that moment so that there’s closure. Or the cantina - we don’t linger on anything at all – the creatures, the atmosphere, we just pass through like it’s all so common and trivial… and the wonder is killed in the process, implying it’s common and trivial.

Editing is also off for what I expect from Star Wars. There’s no longer any dissolve cuts. Where most of the Star Wars movies imply passage of time between scenes with dissolves, this film just cuts from scene to scene with no sense of taking a breath, which IMO is an integral part of why Star Wars works. It has pace and time passes. This rapid cutting also impacted how the music figures into the film. It rarely has time to swell and exist, because the pacing of the film is so cut-cut-cut fast. Scenes were “played out” by the score in the originals, and yet here, we don’t have that happen. That’s a loss.

Han seems to be in the film for comic relief and I dislike that. He’s much older, but they don’t set him up with dialogue that communicates his never-ending search for the falcon in a passionate way. There’s never a moment of childish glee that he’s got his ship back; they start to go there with a discussion with Chewie at one point, and then it just drops off. There’s never a moment when he’s alone with the ship and can just say “hi” to it again, so we can see that he really, really missed it. I blame part of this on Harrison Ford’s age – he’s just not got that energy any longer, and I don’t think that he could muster the character as well. I would have rather they tried to work around that, and make Han out to be much more of a “I’m done with all this” guy, set on living out his life as a shipping / freight hauler, but stumbling on the Falcon and seeing Rey and Finn’s plight rekindles some of his old spirit of adventure and is his call back to action to get involved. He was supposed to always be the “reluctant hero” if you go by The Power of Myth (highly recommend you check out that series by Joseph Campbell) definition, and yet I think they lost that here completely. He’s a plot device and a nostalgia play. I think he could have been better used.

Next, the villains blowing up planets with yet another death star type weapon was unnecessary. Since we never saw the people or the planet(s) that were destroyed until they were destroyed, there was nothing really for us to care about. It almost felt like the script discussion was “well we can’t just have them get in range and blow up the rebels, so we have to make the weapon inoperable for a bit. Let’s work backwards from that. How about they have to test fire it first? On what? Oh an alliance system? OK. Let’s make one up.”

Also, since we never saw the New Order (NO) enforcing their will beyond one planet and two settlements, we don’t know how powerful they are across the system, how oppressive they are, and what they were doing to everyone else. They come across as a fringe lunatic group that has massive resources; very, very dangerous, especially because they’re being commanded by a sociopath, but not omnipresent and scary as the Empire was by any means. They yell a lot and their leader throws violent tantrums when things don’t go his way.

Finally, there’s the rebels. What are they even doing? We get zero sense of any rebellion besides the initial skirmish, and then they just show up as plot devices. Again, I think giving some sense of what the universe is like under the thumb of the NO would have done wonders to show why there’s rebellion (still) and how the NO have taken up the Empire’s mantle of galactic oppressors. We just have to take everyone’s word for it until the NO starts blowing up planets.

And on that for a moment, what a waste of resources. Seriously. Blow up a planet? An entire planet, and workforce, and raw materials? And you just… blow it up? Hell, since this weapon consumes suns to fire, just EAT THE SUN AND LEAVE. Now that’s cruelty; a slow death to every inhabited planet in the system, and leaves a lingering message of their true power for any other systems that would aid the rebels.

Characters & future –

Poe seems fun because he’s witty and charming within his space. We’ll see where they go with him and how he figures into the films down the road. Right now, he’s very one-dimensional and fills the “help to empower Finn” role and that’s about it.

Finn is a wildcard, and I want to like him. I would have really liked more time with him before his crisis of faith moment at the settlement, as we had no idea he wasn’t just some average stormtrooper that’s done this 100s of times before, and his mannerisms didn’t allow him enough time to be conflicted. Also, the strangeness him being the only trooper every seen with their helmet off leads us to this weird “are they all clones minus him?” which is briefly mentioned later in the film during a villain power struggle moment, but that’s not really explained any further.

Rey I like. I like that she’s a savant with just about anything mechanical, and she’s obviously very, very strong with the force (how can she not be Luke’s daughter?), but I wish this manifested a bit differently than it did. I would have loved if this came across as her being less heavy-handed via suddenly focusing and calming herself and becoming uber-asskicker and instead just been her having incredible intuition, timing, and fortune. If the only true moment of her manifesting any sort of power in this film was in the torture scene (which was great), I would have been insanely happy with that, knowing a door has now been opened and she’s going to become a force to be reckoned with.

Kylo I’m hoping has zero chance at redemption at this point. I want him as an evil, cruel force in this new story line, one that exists only to tear things down and make others suffer. I never, ever want to see him redeemed at this point. While we clearly know the levels that Annakin stooped on his way to becoming Vader (killing kids, anyone?), Kylo has already gone past that in my mind. I will be very pissed if we get a Vader-like turn with him at some point. IMO, it should be Leia that kills him in the 3rd film (or has the opportunity to save him, but does not), or the Emperor himself, as Han alludes to. Funnily enough, I don’t care to know more about this character at this point. Just let him be the rabid dog, because I really don’t want to care about him after his actions in this film.

Han I’ve already mentioned, but I think again we just didn’t get enough time of him not wanting to come back in the first place – he’s tired, ashamed of his son, lonely and estranged from Leia, and doesn’t have the falcon – and he didn’t have enough scenes involving Kylo/Ben before his final confrontation for him to be conflicted about confronting his son and that he’s trying to bring him back more for Leia than because he believes he can change. Han was always supposed to go to his death knowing it was coming, as TESB sets up so well, but here, I don’t think he’s given a line that really cements that before he dies. The face touch gesture was nice, but yeah. Not set up well enough earlier on.

Leia needs more space to grow her new character. Age is a factor here as well, but I want to see her take Han’s death and turn that into pure motivation to bring Kylo and the NO down, using the rebellion and her brother to drive that.

With Luke it’s just too early to tell. I think he’ll get killed by Kylo in EP VIII in order to set up the Obi to Luke parallel for Rey. I hope that’s not the case, as it’s so easy to see it coming like that it’s disappointing me already just thinking about it. I’m hoping that Luke goes a bit off-the-rails on learning of Han’s death and realizes he has to put his apprentice in the ground. I would LOVE to see this eventually come down to Kylo as evil rage, Luke falling from the path into burning revenge, and Rey being the true walk-the-line Jedi she’s destined to become.

C3P0 & R2 weren’t in this long enough for me to really like them. I missed C3P0’s antics however. R2 was a plot device and a bad one at that – they really have NO IDEA where that section of the map fits in? R2 had that map sitting around for how long and they never downloaded it? Wouldn’t the rebels have at least a vague map of the entire galaxy? Hell, if Google ever gets out into space you can bet they’ll have recording drones going everywhere mapping everything. You really expect us to believe that this universe is so obviously lacking in information about their own territories that a simple pattern match wouldn’t have eventually found the area? It would have been nicer if R2 was the key - he had Luke’s location and everyone knew it - and was the only thing that could make sense of the encryption key (the mcguffin BB8 carried around) in order to show it. You could have even started R2 in the NO’s possession – hey that would be cool!

What would I have done differently?

  • Set up the NO a lot better. Have them oppressing the hell of out everyone, obsessed with exterminating anyone that shows any hint of connection to the force, because they know Jedi could stand up and be a rallying point against them. They’re searching for Luke at the same time because he’s the only one that could train a Jedi force against them. It would have been hugely impactful on Finn to be at one of these “force sensitive cleansings” before we roll onto Jakku, so we understand how vicious and cruel this group is and how far they’ll go to oppress jedi powers. It would have been nice to get a moment of resolve in the face of death from a captured force-sensitive family too, so Finn had a glimpse of what it means to stand defiant as that crack in the armor of the NO’s indoctrination that then snaps on Jakku’s raid.

  • Set up Han as stubbornly retired from life, just drifting, aging, and making deals, but not really with his heart in it. When he stumbles on the falcon, that’s the first crack in his crusty shell that eventually, through multiple cracks, gets him back in the fight, back on the ship, and back to Leia. I would have had a scene with him and Chewie discussing the idea too, as it would have given some depth to Chewie in a nice way. He makes his hard choice by confronting Ben, knowing the likely outcome.

  • Given Finn more of a setup with the NO so his obsessive fear of them is more warranted (see above). He’s got enough support around him that his growth out of the indoctrination and the lingering after-fear and slow confidence building would work. I would have made him a bit more hesitant to fight at first though, so that you can see development through the film for his character as he grows from “fear of the NO” to “standing up to the NO”

  • Likely removed the bar and the Yoda replacement character, given Leia the task of embracing Rey and still having Luke’s old lighsaber, as that would make sense. It almost felt as if Leia was supposed to be running that bar, then they changed it at the last minute in the script, instead going for a female version of Yoda and an exposition character instead.

  • Set Rey up on Jakku after being established (and showing how lucky she is for some reason) that she’s captured by the NO and detected as force-capable (i.e. she’s going to be exterminated) before being rescued by the rebels to show them ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING REBELLIOUS on Jakku. She ends up with BB8 after the rescue goes a bit sour, the rebels are rallied and have to flee from the NO and we’re off from there.

  • Removed the starkiller (nice nod to Luke’s original last name there) base weapon, or changed it to be less death star kaboom and more about oppression and control. Honestly, I would have been happy if the rebels just permanently disabled it instead of blowing up another planet, rendering the zillions of credits worth of construction entirely useless unless they want to just ram it into another planet, as it would never get a chance to fire.

  • Pivoted the film around hard choice moments being made for each character. Finn makes his early; Kylo makes his choice clear; Rey makes hers in abandoning the idea of her family returning (but surprise! You found them and you don’t know it yet!) and going to seek Luke; Leia realizes her son can’t be redeemed and sets the rebels on the path to stop him and the NO; Han makes two - one to start living again when he finds the falcon, then another to stop living when he knowingly gives his life trying to save his son from the dark side.

So while I just picked at the film a lot, I have to say I have nothing but respect for the creative talents and work that went into rebooting Star Wars in a way that was entertaining and fun. It’s easy to critique from the sidelines after-the-fact. I’ve been lucky enough in my career to have worked on several Star Wars games and with the IP so I’m very passionate about it. I think there’s tons of promise in the new characters and story – I just want it to feel a bit more like Star Wars without just being a repeat of the original three episodes.

So what did the rest of you think? Agree with me? Disagree? Other ideas? I’d love to hear your thoughts on the film.


I thought it was great! no major nit picks for me. I think a lot of the questions and issues we have will work themselves out in episode 8. If you watch episode 4 enough there is plenty to nit pick about their as well… all the movies have issues. But I think no matter what , they will all have “could have, would have, should have” moments.

I need to watch it at least 3 more times for some of it to hit me and be like “ok,that’s kind of dumb, or that could be better.”

I guess my one complaint is SNOKE. Why? He looks weird and why make him look so huge in the projection? I bet he ends up being a little guy and that’s his way to make ppl fear him due to shear size. Its his way of “protecting himself” since he was badly injured and is basically on a life support type chamber or technology to stay alive.

I wonder if he really will look like the 2 art works i seen where he has a black Sith robe and a respirator on his lower jaw? hmmm… he looked pretty cool in those pics…but in the movie nothing close.

I cant wait to find out!!! I cant wait to see again!!!

Hey @TempusChaoti … how about Darth Maul as our next guest character??? LOL

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I loved the movie it was great however I had a couple of problems.

  1. Kylo rens actor just didn’t seem to fit for me. He looked like leis had a love child with professor snape from Harry Potter. I wish they didn’t take off his mask he would have been so much cooler, his voice was
    badas s.
  2. The death planet, you’d think that the remnants of the empire would have learned from their last two super weapons that they should beef up the weak points on it and get some more defense. It only took a small squadron of x-wings to just wreck everything like come on.

This is one of my biggest complaints. It all felt to similar. I think that they tried to stick very closely to what they knew the fans already liked (probably of fear of being criticized the way the prequels were i guess?). I like that they stuck more to the style of the original trilogy but, in terms of plot devices and such, I think they stuck too closely to it. It’s not that the plot of the movie was bad, but it was way too familiar and ultimately underwhelming.

Also a very good point and ultimately why I can’t bring myself to agree with Han’s death… (aside from my dislike for Kylo Ren, which I’ll discuss later). The way the story progressed, It made sense that he died, so it’s not like it was “unnecessary” in that regard, but it just feels wrong. Bringing the character back after all those years, only to kill him off without letting us really enjoy him, y’know? Had they given the characters more time I think I could be more accepting of it, but with what they gave us, I really feel unsatisfied.

This is interesting. It’s not something that I related to each other at all, but it makes sense. Another of my biggest complaints is honestly the soundtrack was lacking. There wasn’t really anything that stuck out besides the songs that were variations from the original trilogy. All the other films have had great soundtracks but this one (like it’s plot) was lacking overall. But now that you’re mentioning it, I think you’re right. The pacing of the movie probably stopped any of the music from really sticking out or anything.

This is part of the whole “feeling too familiar” thing from my first point, but the “Since we never saw the people or the planet(s) that were destroyed until they were destroyed, there was nothing really for us to care about.” thing I’m a little iffy about. The truth is, this is exactly what happened in A New Hope. We didn’t know anything about Alderaan before it blew up, but that didn’t really matter. It wasn’t played to make us sad or anything, it was to show how powerful/evil the Empire was. I think they were trying to establish the New Order as a legitimate threat, but because of the familiarity of the situation, I think it failed in really giving us any kind of “wow factor”. So I do think it was unnecessarily, but due to it’s familiarity rather than lack of emotional response.

This is another problem with the pacing. Totally agree. We have no prior knowledge of the group. We have no sense of scale. I mean, The New Republic was supposedly the new galactic government right? Why was “the resistance” even a resistance if their supported by the republic? Wouldn’t the Order be the resistance/rebels in this regard since their opposing an established government? This would imply their a small organization but their army appears massive. Why? Where are they getting all their resources? How long after the destruction of the Empire did they form? It just feels like we were left in the dark about lots of important issues that really seem vital to understanding the Order as a group of villains. It felt less important to know the Empire’s background in A New Hope because it’s not like we had any knowledge of the universe beforehand. Here we go into it knowing what happens in Return and get thrown into this new situation with no real explanation when I feel we really deserved one. Maybe that’s just me feeling entitled though. Either way I feel like their origin and influence could’ve been explored better given better pacing. It’s possible this will be explained better in the next installments, but I feel it would’ve been worth more to be included in this one.

For the most part I liked all the new characters. The sense of humor of the movie was great and never felt too intruding or anything. Characters all had good dynamics together I wanna say. Most of my interest in the films going forward is having them more flushed out. I feel like Captain Phasma really deserves more screen time too.
My only real character complaint was Kylo Ren.

I agree completely here. I will be extremely upset if they even try to redeem him. I disliked him soooo much as a villain. He just feels like an angsty teenager going through a rebellious phase. I don’t care to know more about him, but I know we’ll at least get the details of his turn, if for no reason other than to explore Sloan’s character or something (you can tell they built Sloan as a parallel to the Emperor from the original trilogy, which makes him another example of all too familiar plot stuff, hopefully they develop him as a moe unique villain or something). The only way I’ll be happy with his story is if he becomes straight up evil and dies a horrible death.

I don’t necessarily want the story with him to progress the way you do, but I completely agree on the point above. Luke did look badass all Jedi Master though.

Summarizes my thoughts on the matter nicely lol

Overall I honestly liked the movie, but was very underwhelmed/disappointed. It just really could’ve/should’ve been a lot better than it was. The visual effects of the movie were great, really like how it felt like a continuation of the original trilogy in terms of stylistic choices. I was disappointed by the lack of memorable fights (was honestly underwhelmed by the lightsaber battle as well), but again, it all looked amazing. Another big bonus was the diversity in cast. You really see lots of background characters of different ethnicity and even random female stormtroopers and pilots and such. Despite my disappointment with this installment, I am looking forward to the next, if for no reason other than to see them hopefully remedy some of my complaints with this one.

I would like to emphasize this as well. Despite my overall disappointment, I was thoroughly entertained and had a lot of fun watching the movie. I have the utmost respect for all involved in it’s creation.

(as an aside, I’m a little ashamed my longest post on the KI Forums isn’t even about KI lmao :sweat_smile: )

EDIT: I just realized we both wrote New Order, but they’re actually called the First Order I think lol oops.

Okay, so I finally got around to seeing the film with friends and well, there’s a lot to say and cover, so I’ll do my best to cover as much as I can.

First, I’d like to say that in general, the movie was good. I’d give it an 8/10 or a 4/5. It had great special and practical effects, great acting, great action, and felt like Star Wars through and through. I think where it failed was with the rather weak story and parallels. Oh God, the parallels. Let’s see just how many there actually are (off the top of my head).

  • Jakku = Tattooine
  • Forest planet (don’t recall the name of it) = Endor
  • Starkiller Base = Hoth
  • Han Solo’s death = Obi-Wan’s death
  • Rey’s adown-on-her luck scavenger on a desert planet = Luke’s a down-on-his luck moisture farmer on a desert planet
  • Starkiller Base = Death Star
  • Kylo Ren = Darth Vader
  • General Domnall Gleeson (forget the character’s name) = Tarkin
  • Supreme Leader Snoke = The Emperor
  • Captain Phasma = Boba Fett
  • Poe Dameron = Wedge Antilles
  • BB8 = R2D2
  • Finn has to make a choice in loyalty = Han Solo has to make a choice in loyalty
  • Starkiller Base obvious’ weakness = Death Star obvious weakness
  • Fat X-Wing pilot with beard = fat X-Wing pilot with beard
  • Choked out NO subordinate = choked out Imperial subordinate
  • Kylo Renn’s arrival on Jakku = Darth Vader’s arrival on Leia’s diplomatic ship
  • Captain Phasma in trash compactor = Han, Luke, and Leia in trash compactor (also, Boba Fett in Sarlacc pit)
  • Villains eaten by tentacled beast = villains swallowed up by Sarlacc pit
  • Naz Kinada = Yoda
  • Naz’s bar = cantina
  • Force preminition with lightsaber = force vision on Degobah
  • Kylo Ren/Rey need to be trailed in the force = Luke need to be trained in the force
  • Rey’s nack for tech = Annakin/Han Solo’s nack for tech
  • Starkiller base explodes = Death Star explodes
  • Entire solar system wiped out (5 planets) = Alderaan wiped out
  • No prior exposition with solar system before it blows up = no prior exposition with Alderaan before it blows up
  • Prince… AHEM General Leia = Mon Mothma
  • Rebel plan scene to attack Starkiller Base = Rebel plan scene to attack Death Star
  • Resistance prepares to board fighters scene = Rebels prepare to board fighers scene
  • Poe is captured and rescued = Leia is captured and rescued
  • BB8 carries vital info = R2D2 carries vital info
  • head-strong, take charge female character in Rey = head-strong, take charge femal character in Leia
  • Gunner fight on Millenium Falcon with Finn = Gunner fight on Millenium Falcon with Luke
  • Jakku settlment massacre = Leia’s Rebel ship massacre/Luke’s parents’ massacre
  • Han Solo’s junk ship = Jawa sandcrawler
  • Finn and BB8 stranded on Jakku = C3PO and R2D2 stranded on Tattooine
  • General Gleeson verbally stands up to Kylo Ren = subordinate verbally stands up to Darth Vader
  • Ren’s Jakku speeder = Luke’s Tattooine speeder
  • Finn/Rey fight against Kylo Ren = Obi-Wan/Qui-Gonn Jinn fight against Darh Maul
  • Rey uses force suggestion = Obi-Wan uses force suggestion

…and on and on and on… SIGH

As far as the characters go, I thought the acting was spot on, particularly with the new cast. The weakest acting, I think actually goes to Han and Leia. Han’s death was something I could see a mile away, considering the parralel to Obi-Wan (and since it was known he was supposed to originally die way back in episode 4, I think this simply goes full-circle in that regard - as a matter of fact, this whole film, with the similarities listed above, I think is simply 1 giant re-write of what episode 4 was supposed to be initially before numerous changes were made).

Finn was great, with only 1 weak moment in the entire film IMO, and that’s when he’s yelling at Captain Phasma with a blaster in her face. It was funny though.

Rey on the other hand - WOW! Props to Daisy Ridley. She’s pretty and makes great emotional faces for the camera!

Our droid duo has now become a droid trifecta - BB8 fits in perfectly with the other 2 droids and is easily 1 of the best characters in the film - loved the tiny torch scene, BTW. I’m still not quite sure how Rey understands his beeps and whistles though - a force power perhaps?

Kylo Ren did okay for the most part, but came off as kind of a winy emotional brat. That being said, he’s a dark-sider, and they’ve always had trouble controlling their emotions (I particularly liked how he raged inside the torture chamber after Rey’s escape as the 2 Stormtroopers decided to turn around). I hope he doesn’t get redeemed at this point either as he’s already made his choice after killing his own father. There’s a lot to be said about his force powers, which are brand new and rather quite original - the ability to physically hold people against their will, extract information from them mentally, and to stop a blaster bolt in mid-flight!? Awesome new use of the dark side of the force! I hate his big, goofy-looking ears though.

Chewbacca was largely used as comic-relief, getting shot and all. Still I’m happy that his bowcaster got a lot of screen-time (it’s about time!) and was used to injure Kylo Ren after Han Solo’s death to make the fight between him and Finn/Rey a bit more even-handed.

General Gleeson-what’s-his-name was a weak all-around character - all he really did was say “fire!” or “you may fire when ready” - that’s almost half his entire dialogue as he says it like 3 or 4x in the film. Still, at least he knows when to leave, unlike Tarkin.

A lot of characters kind of vanish into the ether throughout the film and it makes me wonder where they’re going to be or even if they’ll reappear in later films. Does Captain Phasma escape from Starkiller Base, for example (I for 1, would love to see her in a 1 on 1 fight against Chewie as revenge against him for tackling her and putting her in the garbage chute)?

Cinematically speaking, this movie hit all of the right notes. Seeing the wreckage on Jakku (particularly with Rey’s home being an AT-AT) was just beautiful. Seeing Poe take out 5 tie fighters in 1 clean film-shot from Finn’s perspective on the ground - gorgeous! The Millenium Falcon taking all of the worst hits (side-swiping the ground on Jakku and plowing through trees and into the ground on Starkiller Base) and still coming out on top - classic! The tentacled monsters rolling through the garbage ship - gross! Naz and Snoke - Gollum-quality FX (props to Andy Serkis’ and what’s-her-African-sounding-name’s acting!). I particularly liked watching the General’s face and eyes light up and reflect the red energy of the beam when he watched his machine fire and utterly destroy 5 planets at once at his command.

Watching this film, I enjoyed it, but was also quite disappointed in many respects. That being said, I can’t shake the feeling that I will actually like it more the more I watch it, which is something that doesn’t really happen with many films (usually it goes in the opposite direction). There’s also so much setup for the next film, that it has grabbed a hold of me and I am eagerly awaiting the next film, like so many others are too, I suspect.

Due to all of the side-characters, aliens, creatures, locations, etc., like the ones shown in the Naz Kinada bar scene, I can’t help but think this film is setting up the franchise to do what the original Star Wars did all over again - to get you to wonder, why’s that character/creature there? What’s their purpose? It’s going to be big and add to the Star Wars (renewed) expanded universe all over again. That’s 1 heck of a cash-grab setup.

While this film seems like a bit of a record stuck repeating and is an obvious cash-grab, it exudes Star Wars so wonderfully, that I can’t help but enjoy it despite its shortcomings. If you ask me, it’s better than Ep. 1 and 3, but not the rest (making it the 5th best film out of 7). That being said, in terms of that “Star Wars feel” it beats the living snot out of all 3 of the previous films (Ep. 1, 2, and 3) combined - props to J.J. Abrams in that regard. In a sad way, though, I feel almost like the big studios have won with Disney’s purchase of George Lucas’ love-child, hence why the famous creator referred to it as feeling a bit like a divorce - and he got the short-end of the stick. Then again, this might be a good thing considering where the last 3 films were going.

I for 1, can’t wait for Episode VIII as well as the spin-off movies featuring the characters that actually get the Death Star plans (“many Bothans died to bring us this information”).

Before I go, I just had a random thought that popped into my head that I’d like to share with you: the alien X-Wing pilot that gets blown up during the trench run - was he a Bothan? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

First off, it would have been nice to get a little more backstory - given how ROTJ ended, it would have been really nice to get at least some sense of why the galaxy is apparently still so crappy. Who the First Order and the Resistance (as distinct from the Republic) are is left incredibly vague. Overall, I really liked the first parts of the movie, but really feel like the last third of it fell apart. I walked out of the movie super disappointed :pensive:

Kylo Ren
The last third of the film really fell apart over Kylo Ren I felt. He was an incredibly menacing villain at the first, but after he captures Rey and takes off his mask, he basically spends the rest of the film being a whiny, emo brat. It didn’t humanize him, it just made me think he’s a ■■■■ who has undisclosed mommy and daddy issues. I’m sure they have future plans for him, but I tend to think he’s going to wind up with an actual redemption arc (where he’s the one who brings down Snoke or otherwise helps defeat the First Order). But the way they made him in this film doesn’t make me want to root for his redemption.

If you’re looking to have a terrifying and badass villain, you already had one in first 2/3’s of the movie Kylo Ren. The last 3rd of the movie ruined that for me. If you want to have a redemptive character, you need him to retain some qualities that make you root for his redemption, and the last 3rd of the movie killed any notion of that for me as well. Kylo Ren shows no nobility or hidden virtues that make you WANT him to be saved, and if you’re going to have a villain like that then you can do it without all the pseudo-conflict and whining.

I wasn’t looking for the second coming of Darth Vader, and I’m not against either the basic premise of his plot (the scene with Vader’s helmet was VERY well done I thought) or the idea of a villain actually being a real person. I simply don’t think that a villain actually being a real person means he has to come off like an angsty teenager.

So in short: if he’s going to be a badass, let him be that. If he’s going to be a redemptive character, then give me SOMETHING that makes me want to see him redeemed. He just comes off like a ■■■■ - and while that is certainly a real thing, I contend that it’s not what you want the defining characteristic of a major character like Kylo Ren to be.

I also really felt like Finn got the short end of the stick - for a guy who spent his entire life being indoctrinated as a killing machine, he just came off as way too excitable and funny. Just because he doesn’t want to be a murdering space-■■■■ doesn’t mean an entire life of indoctrination would just drop like that. I really like both the premise of the character and the way that Boyega approached him, but I just really want the next films to take the character more seriously. It was fun at first, but towards the end it just felt like the film was poking fun at his expense. He’s obviously competent from basically every action scene he’s involved in, so it seems weird to just have him be the comic relief the way he was here. Don’t have to remove all of that (because it does work in small doses), but I’d like it if they took it down a notch in the next one.

I really, really enjoyed the first two acts of the movie - it was great seeing the universe again, and the characters and their characterizations and interactions were just spot-on. The actors had chemistry and the dialogue felt Star War-sy, but real in a way that was missing from the prequels. There was a great villain, and even with the tragically non-existent backstory I found myself rooting for these people, because they were relatable and interesting and I understood their motivations. But it really did fall apart for me over that last act. The villain went from incredibly interesting and menacing to angsty and incompetent (really, you barely beat a non-Force user in a lightsaber fight, and then lose to a chick who didn’t even know about the Force until like a week ago? I don’t care if you got shot - get your ■■■■ together Kylo :unamused:) , and I just can’t get behind where they decided to take things. I don’t care if Ford doesn’t want to play the character anymore - there are better ways to deal with that.

Also: the film basically seemed determined to ruin Luke Skywalker as a character. Like seriously, what the crap is he doing hiding out? The galaxy sucks - get off your hermit ■■■ and do something. And if it turns out that he really is Rey’s father, it just makes it even worse. Hermit Luke makes no sense given the state of the universe, and it seriously does him no favors :confused:

This is why I want captions - my bro says Ben, whereas I say Ren, but we’re both hearing-impaired, so…

…and doesn’t Han Solo have a son named Ben in the expanded (now legacy) universe?

I could be mistaken; they may have named his sone Anakin… It’s been a long time since I’ve read any of the EU stuff myself. :confused:

That does sound right. :wink:

remember it was all in testing phase… even the storm troopers…they were considered fresh out of “trooper school”… Hux was even threatened to have them replaced by clones.

But your right in a way… it was 30-33 years after those events

Hux! That was his name! …but it doesn’t sound right. I guess I’ll Google it to make sure…

In any case, the whole “they’re newly trained” aspect makes me think, so that’s why they’re all such lousy shots! :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, it was interesting to hear that clones were still, technically around (or could be brought back).

It is BEN, Ben Solo. He was training with Luke in the Knights of Ren at the last Jedi temple. So was Raye…as she is Bens sister. Her powers proved to be greater than Bens at a younger age… Ben grew jealous and the dark side started to creep in. Ben, in a fit of rage…killed all the other students. Luke grabbed Raye and dropped her off with the old guy at the planet of Jakku.

Luke then fled the galaxy and into hiding due to he felt responsible for teaching Ben / Kylo the force and him killing all the students. Luke has always wanted to flee due to he felt he may cause pain to the ones he loves due to him being the only Jedi left in the galaxy… and he did, indirectly from Kylos actions. (Luke didnt want t o train any one, he was scared 1 would be seduced by the dark side… he didnt want that burden…but Leah talked him into it. thats why she is looking for him… to tell him its not his fault…its ok… they need him back.)

Why did they not say Raye was Han and Leahs daughter? Because they knew…if they did… the entire FIRST ORDER, KYLO and SNOKE would come after her… therefore they kept it quite no matter how bad they wanted to let her know.

Yes, its GENERAL HUX. Thats also why they had the huge Nazzi type gathering with him speaking and getting all crazy eyed as they all raised there fist in the in air to “hail Hux”. This was there bg 1st moment… to show the galaxy that the 1st Order was no joke. And they succeeded…yet failed…Hux, Phasma Kylo, and Snoke all made it out aloive…so Im assuming the 2nd movie will be alot like Empire… they will “hunt down Raye and FInn”…Phasma being the Bounty Hunter (Bobba Fett style).

Kylo and Raye will receive training… face off… the 1st order will win and lead into the 3rd movie.

It is Hux; I checked IMDB… :expressionless:

That being said, I hate how everyone assumes they’re all alive. With the exception of Hux, who left, and Snoke, who was never actually there, there’s absolutely no indication that the others ever made it out alive. The last you see of Kylo Ren is when he’s laying in the snow. The last you see of Phasma is when she’s supposedly put into a garbage chute. I feel like that’s lazy editing/story-telling on their part. I’m sure they’re alive because well, Kylo Ren’s a main character and with Phasma, it would just seem like she would be a wasted character if she didn’t make it out alive. Another bad edit is when Supreme Leader Snoke tells General Hux to get Kylo Ren and then the VERY NEXT SHOT is of Starkiller Base (where Kylo Ren was last seen) exploding in a great ball of glory. This film doesn’t benefit from having a scene like in the original Star Wars where you see the villain(s) floating away in space (as Darth Vader did in a damaged Tie Fighter).

Solos EU kids were: Jaina and Jacen (twins), and Anakin Solo.

Luke Skywalker’s son (with Mara Jade) was Ben Skywalker.