In instinct, TJ can punish with powerline > shadow knee for a fat chunk of damage, though it’s breakable. Buuuut if the knee goes unbroken you can go straight into knee ender for 34% or vortex ender for 33% and additional mixups. Without instinct available he still has the option of blowing through it with shadow vortex which prevents the meteors from coming out at all and gives him a juggle opportunity.
getting a full punish would be nice, and I know its what youre really looking for, but Im just looking for ways to deal with it in ANY fashion.
This thread has been very informative so far. It’s tickling my brain in the best ways; ways I hadn’t even thought of!
@Infilament This is my favorite kind of thread. Thank you for searching for solutions and providing concise, well organized info.
I think there aren’t enough threads like this, and even though I don’t think people will routinely punish this move anyway (a combination of it still being very hard, even equipped with perfect knowledge, and the info not being spread very much), it’s good to talk about the actual game instead of … whatever other topics are being discussed around here these days.
To be clear, I think the move is (much) too strong for the game. You have to read invincible DP (and Eyedol in instinct has ways to make you scared to block on his wakeup), then you have to trade meters, and you might have to be at a certain spot on the screen to boot. If you’re wrong on any of that, you basically eat a lot of damage, so the onus is on YOU, the defender, to have encyclopedic knowledge of this situation, while the onus on Eyedol is to simply just DP whenever and test whether you can do a very frame-specific punish. Because shadow DP is invincible, leads to huge damage on hit and mixups on block (if these weren’t true, big whoop), I think the move is too strong.
I’ve been consistent in my feelings on this throughout KI’s life, for all the other DPs that lead to mixups/wacky situations like this; I feel to punish an invincible DP (and Eyedol’s leads to the most reward on hit AND block out of all of the ones like this), you shouldn’t have to do this type of homework.
But since it’s in the game, we might as well combat it the best we can.
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Funnily enough I would actually say blocking this move (from point blank) might be good for gargos! You mentioned shadow command grab as an option, and that’s a pretty nice chunk of guaranteed damage, but if you simply do a light command grab, not only are you completely invincible to the meteors through its entire duration, but they will actually obscure your body, making it nearly impossible to see what strength of attack you’re using during the grab. Take advantage of his screen-filling BS for your own mixups!
Interesting point of view, but is the reward really that good even in the best case? Eyedol locks out and you get like… 20% on average or so? It’s good that you can get 20% for no meter (sometimes), but it’s like… I dunno, is that “good” for Gargos? I bet you can’t counter break without getting hit by the meteors.
To me, the reward for calling out a point blank invincible reversal (where he can just wake up throw, wake up low short into mixup, etc etc… we all know KI is a buttons-y game) needs to be really strong. You’re sacrificing a ton of pressure on a scary offensive character to make the read.
Still though, that’s just my philosophy talking. The science of Gargos being able to punish with light grab is good to know.
Well, I’m looking at it from the perspective of “gargos has terrible defense and I never want to block anything ever.” I just think it’s funny that a character that generally struggles against any kind of lockdown actually has a consistent (and better than average) meterless punish here. In terms of appropriate risk/reward it’s obviously skewed heavily in eyedol’s favor still. “Good” may have been the wrong word to use 
Yeah it’s cool, I’m just ranting about the move itself being so good, lol. Don’t let me stop you from finding out cool stuff like this.
I was about to post the Gargos dash forward (during freeze) into light grab response as well. It seems good in context: I’m happy to have a meterless punish that does less with Jago.
(I’m not happy to have a meterless punish that does less with Jago.)
Speaking of cool stuff, if cinder has no shadow bar but is fired up or has instinct available his light fireflash will prevent meteors from coming out and let him convert to a combo either via the flame pillar or an instinct cancel. Not exactly a primo punish normally but if eyedol’s burned out and has some white life on him this can be pretty strong.
Nope. He’ll get hit by the meteor and not be able to do a combo.
I think he means do it during the shadow freeze, not after you block the DP.
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yeah light Fireflash just straight up beats it. cool.
if you block it, Cinder can shadow counter the 3rd hit, hit Eyedol in the air and still be able to juggle off of it.
Tacking onto Riptor: you can backdash during the freeze, hit HK immediately after the freeze (unfortunately her pseudo-reversal can’t just be inputted cleanly during the freeze), and instinct cancel the hit (EDIT: the instinct cancel is unnecessary), you can block the meteor shower before Eyedol gets up again.
EDIT: one-bar punish for Riptor: shadow clever girl. 
If tusk is in instinct he can deflect with heavy DP and cancel into another special for a grounded combo that prevents meteors. Without instinct the best he can get from deflecting is a DP combo, which will be very easy to break, so it’s best to just throw if you don’t have instinct available. He of course has the option to catch wakeup shadow DP with a sort-of-meaty-but-not-really deflect with a move that has a later deflect window but leaves the opponent grounded, but that’s more risky.
With kim: while still technically a “throw punish,” her dragon grasp can punish and open a combo. Unfortunately, her options are limited since quite a few of her attacks will push her into meteors, but like gargos the screen shake and particle effects from the meteors will obscure her attacks making the combo difficult to break visually.
Also a note for playing as eyedol vs eyedol, if you punish with a crouching light into shadow shoulder with the proper timing you can continue the combo without spending a second shadow meter using a shoulder linker. However, the timing is super tight.
More Riptor tech: during the freeze, backdash, then hit LP directly after the freeze, and cancel the headbutt into shadow talon rake. Seems to avoid the meteor shower.
yeah I didnt explore doing that during the freeze, that pretty much works. good to know
Awesome feedback and suggestions, certainly better than seeing some folks just call him OP and complain until they’re red in the face. Its nice to see constructive thought and advice on how to deal with him instead of waving the nerf bat at the screen.
But this thread is calling for a nerf. We may be figuring out punishes but it’s only serving to illustrate how ridiculous this move is.
I think the move could be tweaked, but I’m not making this thread to call for a nerf. I want to know how all the characters can handle it, assuming the move in its current form stays in the game.
It does help analyze a move’s strength by looking at the proper counters for it, because then you can talk about risk/reward better. Each person (the devs included) can then make their own judgments on the move.
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