Can somebody compile point by point why Season 3 has such lukewarm reception? What changes transpired between seasons that made pros so negative?

For Win10 and later adopters, please? I would love to fully understand this situation.

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Flip out and stagger are 2 of the main things I recall everyone getting upset about. Plus the reworks of KanRa, Fulgore, Spinal, Maya, and Wulf, Those were some of the top players Mains that got reworked and those players moved onto other characters or just outright quit. (MyGOd being one that I recall disappeared upon S3 release.) Also Sleep getting upset about Kanra and throwing his Kanra bead art down at KIWC and showing his disdain of the changes.

BUt from what I recall it was that stream at KIWC where they announced all the changes and reworks of characters for the S3 release. Id look for that video and watch it to get a feel of where it began.

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Why don’t they like the Staggers ?

They’re some of the best Hit Confirms… who would hate that ?

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-Being unable to adapt to changes
-Selfish and arrogant attitude towards any change, with short term sight towards everything, and the absurd notion that the changes were because of them or their performance in a given tournament, when a patch is planned months ago
-Nostalgia glasses, with people forgetting how they hated S2, and now using it as example of good balance
-Being a more than 2 years old game(when S3 released), after SFV or MKX being launched, the game was OBVIOUSLY less hot news, so is pretty easy to understand that some people may drop the game, even without changes and if you like everything(few people play all their life the same game regularly)

These are the main reasons of S3 “lukewarn” reception. Most of the reasons you will hear (not all) will be just excuses and noise

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It is about 95% people being burned out and constantly surrounding themselves in a negative atmosphere, 5% legitimate, debatable concerns about the game’s balance or direction.

The most legitimate thing I’ve heard from people is that they liked S2 more when everyone in the cast was a lot more degenerate, because they feel a game full of degenerate characters can be self-balancing and interesting, and S3 normalized a few of those things and thus is less interesting to them. This is a personal opinion that is fine to hold (although many of these people also hated S2 while it was out, so I’m usually pretty skeptical of these opinions as they are rarely consistent with past views from the same person).

Some people also think their character got nerfed too hard between S2 and S3, and thus felt personally attacked by the game devs. I’ve discussed this a lot with various people and no matter how much you try to discuss if the changes are good for the game (and sometimes agree that maybe some changes were too much), it’s hard to get past this feeling that some think they were personally slighted. So of course that will lead to serious negativity.

But the vast majority of complaints I hear are because people put themselves in an echo chamber with other burned out players and it has become cool to hate on the game. Some complaints aren’t even factually accurate (they remember S2 interactions differently than they actually happened), or they may not like the current blend of top tier characters. In my experience, it is extremely rare to be able to sit down with someone who currently dislikes the game and have an open, candid discussion about it that doesn’t lead to a shouting match.

The game is also older now and it has less tournament support, so people who enjoy playing in lots of tournaments want to look at newer games to dabble in. Some people can just do this naturally, but some others need to distance themselves from a past game by hating on it so they can “move on” to a new game (this is true not only of KI, but I’ve seen it a lot with other FGs too).

But I think the main thing to take away from this is that a lot of people hate whatever is current – they will fondly remember the past, or look with hope towards the future, but the don’t like the current thing because it is different from the past and not good enough to be the future. This was true of both S1 and S2, which are both now fondly remembered by the community even though there was extreme hate towards both of them by subgroups of people while they were out (I was there for both seasons). In due time, S3 will also be fondly remembered, maybe as the people who hated the game will leave the community and there will be less negativity (same as in S1/S2), maybe as those who currently hate S3 soften their view over time, since time is the great equalizer (same as in S1/S2 – we are already seeing this with some people for S3). This “fondly remembered, but hated at the time” phenomenon has been proven over and over again with past games (SF4, SFxT, etc etc), and even within the KI seasons themselves, so S3 will be no different.

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I have no idea? Some players have characters that didnt get stagger or flip out so it can be annoying to them? It just made it hard at first to adapt so ppl freaked out!

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I still don’t understand how people hate stagger and flipout. They are common ideas in tons of FGs (moves with prolonged hitstun, air resets) and they aren’t out of place or broken when translated to the KI engine in any way.

It’s fine to be “meh” about them, but to outright hate them just blows my mind. You’ll have a pretty hard time finding a fighting game that doesn’t have those things in it.

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LoL… its funny because Street Fighter and King Of Fighters has got Flip Outs Galore !!!

But the stagger hate that I don’t understand… I even if I was on the receiving end of those its no different than being Juggled or OTG’ed.

Meh… ■■■■■’em… their loss.

All a stagger does is let you hit confirm a manual, rather than be forced to automatically cancel into an autodouble or linker because you can’t react. It doesn’t change anything about breakability or whatever, it’s just a normal or special that allows a hit confirm.

I like hit confirming so I like this, and hit-confirmable normals (either via late cancels or enough hit stun to link something on reaction, like Cody’s st.HP in SF4) are common in tons of games. In fact, you can basically think of Jago’s overhead (a S1 move) as a stagger, because you can late cancel and hit confirm on reaction. There is functionally no difference (since Jago is out of throw range most of the time).

The only KI difference is that you can throw someone in stagger but that’s just how they chose to interface it with the breaker system. You can think of throws in this situation like a light manual, which need to be guess broken, so a throw while in stagger needs to be “guess teched” the same way.

I dunno, if someone hates stagger it just shows that they don’t really understand the purpose of them.

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Actually I think they disliked flip out more than stagger. Ive mainly heard people complain about flip out. I just said flipout and stagger because those were the 2 new additions to S3.

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I can see the complaining about flip-out. KI is an offense-heavy game and flip-out essentially puts you into another mix-up in a way that can be even more difficult to deal with than knockdowns. This is especially so with command grab characters such as Thunder and TJ Combo. That being said, I play Jago and use flip-out against opponents a lot.

I don’t follow much of the FGC outside of a few YouTube channels and this forum. As a result I have been insulated from a lot of the negativity. I am bummed that I no longer see Maximillian playing the game (ran across his Fulgore shadow once) or Bass doing uploads. It happens with time. But conversely, we all remember LCD’s rambling video criticizing S3 in a way that seemed divorced from reality.

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Maxs channel has really fallen IMO. I sued to watch him daily…but now he does nothing that Im interested in. And thats fine…but for me, I just dont find the games he is playing now interesting.

I miss his Season 3 Rough Sets and Community Sets Series :confused:

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Its the new norm for gaming environments. Like a game? ■■■■ on it until it dies. Hate a game? ■■■■ on it until it dies.
Internet anonymity has probably done the most to harm any community. People going online and just saying whatever BS they want without proof and resorting to childish insults when they’re proven wrong. Its such a shame that so many good games get shunned simply because people are seriously vocal about what they hate instead of being appreciative of what they have.

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As someone who plays one of those command grab characters, I can pretty safely say there is very little meaningful difference between a flipout or HKD mixup. The same super-messed-up scenarios occur, flipout just shortens the time horizon on them (which does remove mental breathing room). Thunder was doing disgusting micro walk safejump setups way back in S1 too - and no one was blocking them then either. At least flipout mixups can usually be reversaled.

As to the why’s of S3 hate, it’s probably more fair to find one of those players and ask them personally - the forums are largely peopled by those who still love the game (and for myself, like it the most in its current iteration). For me, I’ve had the conversation a few times with a few different players, and am mostly just over the whole ordeal. I’m extremely disinterested in litigating it any further -shrug-

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Gargos

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My God played up until evo. He was fine with wulf just wanted everyone else toned down. At the start of s3 there were just too many characters who reaped exteremely high rewards with almost no risk. That was my big gripe and I know it was others with it early on but has been adjusted for the most part.

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While I don’t disagree, that bit of time to see what is happening on the screen is a big deal in a game this fast. I do think the flip-out made vortex characters stronger. I’m just thankful Fulgore doesn’t have a flip-out with his overhead into low special.

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LOLOL…nuff said!

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Eh. I’ve always thought that while people feel like this is true, it’s really not in practice. Get rid of flipout for most of the cast and they simply replace those setups with others that are just as hard to see, or sometimes even harder (Raam, Hisako, and Thunder are good examples of this).

Maybe Jago doesn’t get to overhead you on flipout anymore, but I don’t know that I think that’s very strong anyway? He can set up more ambiguous stuff with fireball dash cancels and such, and he has access to HKD’s off juggles (which are mostly not really reactable either, making the break a guess too). Riptor, TJ, Kan-Ra…I just feel like all those characters can hose you just as hard whether they flip you out or not. The extra time to prepare your defense is negated by the extra time they have to set up a lab-perfect ambiguous safejump or whatever.

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