Blocking in killer instinct

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21

@GreenCannon540 - now that we have the attitudes out of the way, listen up. Blocking by holding back vs a button is a design decision that influences all the mechanics of the game, character design and so on. Many characters listed in @Barrogh’s post - I would also add Spinal and Thunder to the list, but almost every character has at least one cross-up option - depend on the left/right mixup to get their offense going a lot of the time. If you take that away, you have to give them something else, and then you have to rebalance the whole cast.

You’re right that Sabrewulf is a mixup monster, but the left/right mixup is only one part of the equation. He also has an extremely quick high/low mixup (that is also getting addressed in S3), as well as feral cancels in instinct mode, which allow him to cancel any attack and do something else, like dash through the opponent. Even Thunder has that in instinct (the ability to dash-cancel his moves and dash through opponents). All this and much more would have to change, so it’s really not as simple as “giving you an option”.

There are people here who have been playing fighting games for 30+ years. I’ve only been playing them religiously for about two, but had also played them a lot as a kid in the 90s, and I find directional blocking to be superior to button blocking in every respect in 2D fighters. Yes, I played MK9 and MKX for a while, among many other fighting games. Take this game for what it is an enjoy it. Might turn out you won’t want to go back to the block button at all.

1 Like
22

Okay guys, everyone take it easy. Just stop for a second and reset the conversation because there’s too much substance here to derail a good thread. I’m just going to assume that no one meant anything disparaging in their comments an we don’t need to “fight about the fight.” Moving on…

The “hold back” versus “block button” debate is probably the oldest and saltiest debate about fighting game mechanics and has been going on since 1992 when both SF2 and MK released and sat side by side in almost every arcade in the world. People get crazy about this. Virtua Fighter vs Tekken took the debate to the 3D realm and then Namco threw everyone for a loop by “switching teams” and going with a block button for Soul Edge. NRS later pulled this with Injustice.

Both mechanics work, both mechanics allow for a fantastic fighting game and both really serve as the “core” of any system. Meaning, as others have said, you can’t really switch between one or the other without changing the entire game.

The OP was mostly about ambiguous 50/50 or cross up situations in KI. Yes these exist. They exist in MKX as well, they are just different - focusing on high low block instead of block direction. But KI balances these out with the breaker system (as others have mentioned) and depending on the character a few other tools including moves with invincible startup.

KI is designed to be an offense focused game where you cannot effectively “turtle” your opponent. You have to do something because every character can eventually break your block defense even if you are very good. Make no mistake, good blocking will take you far, but it’s not a game where you can be a wall of defense and carry the round.

@GreenCannon540 Transitioning from MKX you will need some time to adjust to the block mechanics for sure. But the most difficult adjustment will be moving between the “find an opening and then hit optimal combo” mentality to the fluid transition between the neutral and combo game in KI where you have to keep focused in order to try to keep your opponent from getting their full combo. I actually like MKX just fine, but it is a ver different game and the better you get at either game the more different they become.

Finally, although KI can appear random in streams and vids (this has been the topic of much debate) the game actively encourages you to try to be UNPREDICTABLE. This is very different than random, but it can be hard to see the difference unless you really know what you are looking at. Once you are in the game and playing it you will see what I mean.

4 Likes
23

Wulfs dash to Eclipse isnt that hard to block and ppl dont do it very often. If anything you need to watch for is Wulfs dash to throw…that’s way more common and consistent than eclipse.

I think watching and playing are two totally different perspectives… if you havnet played, then it really isnt anything to worry about just yet. I would focus more on reading and studying the games mechanics so when you do play you are able to hold your own via knowledge.

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I dont think ki is random. by random i mean a move that shouldnt be used in a particular situation but ending up used. If you played mkx, scorpion’s tp in neutral or shago low dash thing out of nowhere without full instinct bar is random for me. Why would you try to throw the game with one move… I guess its less punishable in ki but odds are still there. I guess i understood the concept of b2b. Do you guys think the game could be played on ps4 controller without input errors? or should i buy xbone controller?

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On controller part. Judging by move lists (awaiting for PC port as well), KI should be playable on any potato of a controller - it’s control scheme is simple enough and hardest thing you will have to do are quarter-circles and DP motions (?). In terms of buttons those two look very similar to me too.

So I don’t see why wouldn’t you be fine with DS (which was considered to-go pad for FGs for a while by some people).

Personal note: I fully expect to fare well enough with plain old keyboard. Worked for me in MK9 / MKX and I didn’t find it restrictive for Skullgirls, Guilty Gear and even DoA5 (although I had to avoid characters with 360s and the like for the lack of viable shortcuts for it in that game; that said, some people just use less stupid button layouts than I do and they do fine, apparently).

26

Crossups are the same as MKX high/low mixup. Instead of blocking low or high you have to block left or right. It’s really just a little more depth and it’s something you get used to pretty quick. Something to consider is while you think it makes it easier to open people up that may indeed by the case but that’s where the games interactive breaker system comes into play.

I started taking fighting games more seriously with MK9 and like you I really was partial to the button block system, but I branched out and gave back to block a chance. I have to say I prefer it now. Also back to block doesn’t mean you always have to walk backwards and typically if you do it efficiently you won’t. For example if jago is throwing fireballs at me regardless of which character I’m using I can walk forward and then press down and back to block the projectile then walk forward again.

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Whatever controller you are comfortable with should work fine. As mentioned, KI shies away from challenging inputs.

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Well, glad to see the disagreement got resolved. I was basically just like “huh. That escalated quickly” :sweat:

But as has already been stated, B2B vs block button is a pretty foundational design decision that informs what is allowable in the rest of the game, and so isn’t ever something you’re likely to see as an option. Block button is what allows Scorpion to have a nearly-instant teleport that can be done from the air - in MKX it’s pretty well balanced, but in KI or SF it would be broken to all heck. It’s also the reason the MK games have always had such extensive chip damage, incidentally - because blocking was so “easy” in the originals, there needed to be a penalty for playing too defensively.

It’s pretty much just a familiarity question though. Coming from an MKX background I can see why you’d want a block button, but MK is actually one of the only 2D fighters that uses one. Most other games use back-to-block, as the mixup options are a bit more extensive in that scheme (think Spinal’s left/right/high/low vortex), and you get to play around a bit more on character archetype. Sadira would be a very bad MK character, for example, while she’s very strong in B2B KI. Not that MK doesn’t have interesting characters, but what makes them interesting is very different than what makes a KI or SF character interesting. NRS has dealt with the block button’s implications by incorporating fast high/low strings, high chip damage, and some truly nasty frame traps. KI deals with its Combo Breaker mechanic by making offense truly oppressive, and oftentimes just flat-out unreactable. Games are balanced around their core systems, and while it may not be as flashy as a combo breaker, MK’s block button is as foundational as they come.

A PS4 controller should work fine, btw. Welcome to KI, and hope you have fun with it! :slightly_smiling:

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29

Okay, I’ll throw in my two cents in here.

I still consider myself new to fighting games - never took them seriously and at one point I even considered them apart of my least favorite genres. I came into KI not knowing what DP or crossup even meant, heck, to this day I don’t fully understand frame data and some mechanics.

But I play by feel - in about a year I became familiar with my opponents and the game, earned rank Killer late last year. With that said, I don’t consider myself as a great contender - still I am familiar enough to deal with nasty shenanigans. Wulf is naturally stupid - that is one character you will have to try your hardest but you can treat other matches similarly by using your knowledge to stop their attacks.

You already seem accustomed to the nature of fighting games so you should already know how to deal with mixup/crossups. I find it foolish that just because YOU like how MKX has a blocking system, KI should too. That’s like saying Battlefield should have a freerun mechanic because Call of Duty does. Games differ from mechanics and if KI changed its way then the pacing and feel wouldn’t match what a majority of us grew to love. It takes away the mind games of KI which is huge.

I’ll be that guy who says it. If I can do it, then there is no reason you shouldn’t be able too either - especially since my experience and knowledge of fighting games is fairly new.

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30

I honestly think that the block button in MKX is good and bad. True it does make blocking easier and defense more solid, but it takes away the valuable left right game and can make certain moves almost useless. Take Milena’s teleport in her ethereal variation for example; because the opponent will never have to guess left or right, it is useless as a mix up tool and is only useful for certain combos or escapes. This is disappointing to me, but I understand that there is a give and take.

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No one would play mkx if it had b2b system because there are ton of characters who has sideswitch teleport. And netcode is bad so you couldnt block anything against those characters.

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I never said ki shouldnt have b2b because “i like it that way”. It was an idea. I didnt know how the game works and if there was an option for block button i would gladly take it. But now i understand why b2b exists and im okay with it. I said i might be wrong 4 times. SO i find it foolish that you say “I find it foolish that just because YOU like how MKX has a blocking system, KI should too.”

Stop and read people. So we may stop useless arguments before it starts.

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See, this is another one of those game design decisions I was taking about. As you note, MKX would not work with b2b because it was designed differently. However, NRS also made Injustice, which has b2b and their typical side-switching teleports, but it works - because it was designed from the ground up that way. The teleports were made slower on startup in order to be reactable, and I’m pretty sure (though I haven’t played Injustice in a long time) that there aren’t anywhere near as many side-swtich quick teleport moves (or teleport moves in general) in that game compared to MKX. On the other hand, crossup moves and air mobility was added for a lot of the characters to compensate. It’s an ecosystem, not a bunch of components thrown together.

It’s worth noting that Street Fighter and Killer Instinct do not have unmetered teleport options that do any sort of damage. It’s either teleport for mobility or attack, not both. Spinal’s shadow skeleport attacks, but off the top of my head it’s the only move in the game that does that, and it takes a bar of your shadow meter.

I can’t wait till you get your hands on KI, I think it blows MKX (and pretty much almost any other fighting game) out of the water on pretty much every level and want to know what you make of it. You’ll be a convert yet. :wink:

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I often hear this and I disagree about “broken” part. Teleport is well within reactable speed and by assessing his current position on the screen you can know if he even has any options to mix it up with. Traditionally it’s spear or hellfire from range (the latter two are both beaten and often full combo punishable by a single option - jump forward). Up close it’s anything else. With teleport being always reactable and always very unsafe, it’s hardly unfair by standards of MKX. In fact, it would be little different from his strings ending in OH that can be cancelled into scissors takedown (low) instead. Anyone could attest you that this mixup of his is garbage. Tele being mixup could be more rewarding (you can possibly launch from both attack routes), but also easier to block because it’s slower.

It would make him better zoner, I give you that, but in MKX that’s not saying much.

Most importantly: in fact, you can taste what could scorpion be in such environment by playing Inferno variation who has fullscreen low/OH mixup with low option being a launcher. Essentially the same idea. As scary to think about, as reactable and punishable as “b2b Scorpion” would be in practice.

That would be silly in conservative SF, but in KI… KI has way more powerful offence than that right now.

If you are still not convinced, check out Skullgirls and it’s character Peacock who is basically Kan-ra on steroids with teleport that can move her to either left or right side from the opponent (or fakeout completely, leaking her in place). That game is b2b. And Peacock isn’t particularly strong character there.

Tl;dr:

  • You can make balanced or silly character in the game with any base system.
  • You can make silly offence in b2b (left / right), block button (low / OH), and even hypothetical absolute guard (true blockstring / frametrap / grab) fighting games.
  • b2b game isn’t inherently more offensive than block button game (SF vs MKX).

See above. If you think that it would be hell in MKX, then KI has some nasty surprises for you. Not that you won’t be able to deal with it - even with block button MKX has very powerful offence as well, it’s just different, and people adapt just fine.

As for bad netcode - it’s a reson to fix it, not to change characters around it (they did it once, MK9 Kano is what has happened). Which NRS does right now and they are rather successful.

MKX has 2 SS teles, IGAU had one. I don’t get why teleports are considered trademark of MK. If you want really silly teleports, you’re better off looking for them in GG, SG or anime games than in MK games.

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I was only a very casual IGAU player, didn’t like the game for a number of other reasons, so I could certainly have it wrong there. I was mostly thinking of the Scorpion situation (it was nearly unblockable at first and Scorpion was top tier, then they slowed it down a lot and nobody played him anymore),

On another note, I’m pretty sure MKX has a lot more teleport shenaningans:

  • Scorpion, Takeda and Ermac have side-switching teleport attacks as far as I remember
  • Kung-Lao’s teleport is nothing to scoff at, even though it doesn’t do damage directly
  • Not sure how Displacer Raiden fits in here, since nobody plays him
  • Don’t Mileena and Shinnok have some way (at least in some variations) to appear on the other side?
  • Sub-Zero’s MB slide could maybe be considered an SS teleport, too, but that’s not really the same
  • Tanya can do some silly cross up stuff that would be very hard to block in a b2b scenario
  • Triborg will have a lot of it, too, it seems
  • And then there’s Goro’s stomp, but… who cares? :wink:

Don’t forget there was more teleporting in MK9, even though they weren’t direct damage teleports: Noob Saibot, Smoke, Cyrax, etc.

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No i mean the online lag. If mkx had b2b + bad online = No one plays because tps are unblockable. Also strings into tp would catch everyone because every string has diffrent hit timings.

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Well, I can admit that I forgot some. But hey, why can’t we have some mental gymnastics? Let’s break it down:

Forgot about Takeda, but I’ve addressed those three in my previous post as they are very similar. Besides, he can already mix up with long low, long OH and low projectile (that can be used as a substitute for OH string enders). This simply won’t give him better options than he already has, and while some people hate Takeda with passion, he doesn’t seem to be super amazing.

If you choose to block, then he can already mixup with different followups. Other than that, it will have same pitfalls as the group above, except that you’ll have a bit less time to react IIRC and not all of his options are unsafe if you hesitate to blow up his tele outright, I can give him that. That still doesn’t change the fact that you either react and blow him up or eat mixup with only 1 high-damage option into pressure.

It’s not the least used character/variation btw. But his regular tele is already unsafe even without any followups while ex-tele already grants him a mixup (although displacer isn’t amazing at meter building). If you ask me, TG’s corner shenanigans are more dangerous in terms of risk/reward. Granted, that can solve some of his neutral game issues… Which is already the case, and doesn’t put him into amazing position.

Shinnok no, Mileena could do something akin to Wulf’s dash through for a bar, but she already has true mixups for a bar, so nothing changes really. Without meter, see Raiden, it’s free punish even before she has a chance to press a button.

Not at all. It’s still an attack coming from opponent’s direction that hits low. It you block it low normally, second one won’t come out. Even if it would, you could still block it since there’s no mixup, and you’d have a lot of time to react. Just as Takeda’s ex-TP hitting low on a second hit isn’t mixup - you have about a second to adjust your block to match the attack you have already reacted to.

I don’t think so. Even her TP cancels are negative, while full teleport is not fast. Like with other examples, it’s a gimmick-level mixup, something to remember, but not “silly”. Think of it as of Endokuken cancels with different followups, but without an option to not cancel - can throw you off, but is it really sillier than what character can already do? Not a better mixup than her special cancels either. And those aren’t godly as mixup tools.

It’s unblockable anyway.

Judging by presentation video, KP2 characters will already be of “your defence is useless” kind (insert 800 yen teir joke here). Giving them yet another way to open you up, while making them theoretically stronger, won’t move them in tier lists - their mixups are already good.

For further examples take Quan Chi. This guy used to have true vortex he could fill with whatever stuff he liked. Low/OH, frametraps, shakers (dubbed as “unblockables” in Guilty Gear and MKX community as well, it’s low and OH attacks up to 1 frame apart, in this example coming in any order he wishes) - you name it, he has it. He is also one of the best zoners in the game (Summoner is probably the only one who can actually keep anyone away), and when you are hit with literally anything he does - you’re in. I don’t buy it that blocking any of the above characters in b2b game would be any harder than blocking Quan. And he isn’t even top tier…

And like I said, even if that doesn’t quite convince you, check out what Zato-1, Chipp or Milia do to people in the corner in Guilty Gear. Just to limit this to one example. Trust me, anything that MK characters could do in b2b game ain’t got a thing on them :slightly_smiling:

To clarify, in case you don’t know that game:

  • Zato is two characters in one that are controlled separately. One has lows and stupid pressure. Another has lows, overheads and command throws. Yes, he can do shakers too…

  • Chipp is what happens when Sadira and Wulf have a baby that is as fast as GG character should be… Except it’s probably the fastest one. It’s a character with like 4 different teleports, grounded low and OH (one of the best in the game btw), triple jump/airdash, angled movements and pseudo-dash-though on specials (you can use that as semi-ambiguous crossups in the corner), wall cling and air projectiles… All that while having ability to be invisible that was effective enough that it warranted a nerf.

  • Milia… 50/50? How about 20/20/20/20/20 while being bombarded into blocking state by lingering projectiles Kan-Ra-style (while some of them can move in patterns she programs herself… and that can crossup if she chooses so)?

And combo breakers there are valuable (like, MKX valuable) and can be punished on a read…

What I’m trying to say, in short TL;DR:

  • MKX character are stronger on offence in their block button environment that they are sometimes given credit for, to the point that b2b mixup they could have wouldn’t make them shoot in tier lists.

  • There are far more dirty characters in other FGs than MK characters would be should they be put in b2b environment.

Yeah, I know, I have addressed that. Hell, in bad online even mid attacks are unblockable, that’s not a good indication of how well offence is balanced in the game.

Tele hit grounded targets on what, like frame 25-30? Sure, you have to be on your guard, but like I said, such mixup would be inferior to string into takedown in almost every way… And that mixup is already bad.

38

I could write a bunch of words nitpicking you, but this thread has more than enough pointless arguing. :neutral_face:

I’ll point out that original Scorpion in Injustice is a good example of the point I was making though. It’s not that MKX style characters can’t work in B2B, or that they’re under or overpowered relative to other game characters - the point is that character capabilities are (and have to be) defined by the core systems of the game in which they appear.

GG characters are good examples actually - they exist in all their limitless shenanigans b/c GG has a metric ton of defensive tools and rules. Characters with their capabilities wouldn’t work in most fighters, but do a good job of remaining reasonably balanced and fair within the GG ecosystem.

39

As a relatively casual player, I’ve played a bunch of fighters throughout the years.

Games like the DOA and Soul Calibur series, 3D fighters with a block button felt right to me. I played Tekken 6, and enjoyed that, but I don’t remember whether it was a button or directional block.

Games like KI, Darkstalkers, and other 2d fighters I’ve played which had a directional block felt right. I enjoyed Primal Rage, which I think was directional as well.

I don’t really like the way the combo systems work in Guilty Gear, MK (input timing) or SF (I feel like I can’t string moves together when playing, but love to watch Max or high level SF) work, and although I’m sure there are other fighters I’m forgetting, those are the big ones. For my personal preference, it seems 2D needs directional blocking, but 3D needs a button.

1 Like
40

U can’t air block, one thing I found out the hard way lol. It makes you realise the auto block feature in some of the SF games helped A LOT! As some of the posters have already put you can counter moves in a number of ways, I would say blocking for the most part in KI is one of the least effective ways of dealing with pressure, unless you know how to correctly time when to counter attack.