I’m trying to say it should require him to have it beforehand. Your life gain ender idea doesn’t go against the rule I’m putting in my topic, I just don’t think it’s necessary.
Sorry, but I’m not talking about this in this thread anymore. Back to battery enders.
< shrug > I dunno, I feel like his instinct can be pretty degenerate. One touch->fireballs->guess which manual->fireballs->shadow fireball->shadow fireball feels pretty degenerate when you’re getting hit by it 
And it kinda is a massive life swing for a one chance (or even a no-chance, if the Jago simply wants to go from the first fireball set into the shadows). If you have the bar for it (not an uncommon occurence) and anything more than 5-10% life, I think that use of his instinct is almost always correct. You make it a two-touch defensive game, do a decent amount of flat damage, and stack on a significant amount of PD. I find his instinct considerably more annoying than either Sadira or Orchid…and it’s not even particularly creative in its application. Just “I touched you, now eat this string of obnoxious particle effects!”
Added as I read the rest of the thread:
And yes, eff “strong” Kan-Ra. Not because he was annoying (he was), but because when played to capacity he largely invalidated the very idea of a two-way interaction, and because a character who could put as much crap on the screen as him had no business whatsoever being plus anything after point blank scarab. Here, hold this +8 special->low/command grab mixup. And if you get command grabbed, hold this level 3 one-chance. Eff S2 Kan-Ra - he was bad for the game. 
And I dunno @Fnrslvr, I feel like you’re really protective over things that are pretty unlikely to be changed about Jago. His wind kick and normal frame data haven’t ever really been in conversations for nerfing him, so I feel like focusing in on those things isn’t necessarily having a super realistic argument. No one likes having to hold cr.LK->cr.LK->MK->overhead, but that’s not generally what sets people on edge about the character.
You’re probably right that life gain specials/supers are generally hated more than they should be, but I don’t actually think the flack Jago gets for his is necessarily out of proportion. My personal favorite version of his instinct was the S1 version, where at best he could get an extra 30% or so, and the means by which he did it wasn’t “touch them, and then stack on strings of unbreakable projectiles.” He had to either kill you outright or play the combo game to get that health back, and it was limited to what I felt was a reasable maximum amount. Now, high level Jago is just frustrating to deal with. He’s probably going to hit you once (because hey, plus frames on everything are really, really good!), and when he does, you’re going to watch him gain an immediate 25% back, hurt you, stack on a ton of PD, and then you have to try and block him again and hope he doesn’t touch you once more. I personally think Jago is a strong enough character that his instinct shouldn’t be super awesome, but that’s just me.
I can get behind passive meter gain nerfs or a retooling to his launcher ender damage such that it’s not always correct, and to be honest I can deal with him getting no further changes at all. Jago is a strong and generally interesting character to fight, and I like that. But what makes him interesting to fight isn’t instinct fireball shenanigans, or battery ender->shadow fireball juggles. It’s the other parts of his kit (those sweet, sweet plus frames, damaging DP, great normals) that make him fun to go up against. I don’t think KI is so about breaking the mold that they should reflexively disregard the things that make people feel frustrated when dealing with certain characters. But I don’t think Jago’s frames or his windkick or his DP frame traps are what makes him frustrating to fight against, and I don’t think IG thinks that’s what he needs adjusted.
For what it’s worth, I’m ok with situational juggles after battery enders, even Jago’s in instinct. At least he had to play the combo game a bit to get to that. It’s the completely unbreakable lifeswings that personally annoy me.
But like I said, I’d be ok with Jago even if they touched nothing. They’re taking away DP->shadow fireball, and that’s all I needed.
This is an interesting change request.
In some cases, battery enders cause these juggle states and give certain characters more leeway to mix up an opponent.
Jago and Shadow Jago are the only ones that receive, really, any form of follow-up for these enders in terms of adding up the damage/recoverable life. Fulgore can in the corner, but he doesn’t get meter, but gets a free mix-up in the corner. Glacius doesn’t get one after his battery enders either.
He does after his LVL 4 (shadow shatter at range, anything in the corner).
And I put Cinder on the list cause after the LVL 4 Pyrobomb ender he can quickly use shadow trailblazer to catch them and continue a combo.
I get the sense that you’re being deliberately obtuse. You’re not calling for Jago nerfs, and yet you’re saying that “it should require him to have it beforehand”, which is clearly a nerf, and that a roughly commensurate buff in the form of a dedicated lifegain ender isn’t “necessary”?
This thread is clearly about Jago. The Glacius juggles you cited are basically meaningless: a shadow shatter after a typical level 4 ender will be scaled to hell, and the arbitrary juggles off meter ender in the corner are arguably a good thing because they make the corner matter more. There is exactly one character who cares about this change.
I don’t know, both characters get a lot of lockdown and safe mixups off of assists that don’t have any associated startup or recovery. Also, damage > lifegain generally – if you have to choose between 20% lifegain + 20% damage at the character select screen, and 40% damage, take the latter.
Sure, but he lost all of these things, even the “so much crap on the screen” thing to an extent, all at once. He might be better-equipped to deal with the season 3 cast than I’m aware of, but I’m not convinced.
I’ve seen calls for wind kick to be made punishable on block about every month or so since early season 2, and there was someone complaining about Jago’s frame traps in another thread very recently. I think there are definitely people out there who want to see these changes. We have little to no idea what the devs want, but it’s pretty clear that Jago is in the midst of a retuning focus lately.
Ultimately I think the instinct just isn’t at the center of what makes Jago powerful. It happens twice a match at most, often he doesn’t get it before he loses his first lifebar, and he nearly never gets back any amount as substantial as 30% anyway. It’s good for an instinct, but serious nerfs probably have to hit his moveset, his meter or his damage, things which impact the entire match, in order to actually lower his standing. You don’t get there by taking away a lifegain juggle after an ender.
These potshots at things around the sides of his gameplan that don’t really affect his overall balance are just going to make quality of life for Jago players worse in the lead-up to a serious nerf that’s probably going to happen sooner or later. At this point I really just want a nerf that does the job so that we can get past this impasse, so that people can move on to asking for nerfs for some other top-tier character, and so I can either keep going with Jago or drop him.
This is just not true. He has one reactable mixup, you can block and look for the overhead in perpetuity until you have meter for a shadow counter. His throw range is point-blank, tight tick-throws whiff. If you’re pressing a button to challenge a frame trap then you’re doing so out of basically no better reason than impatience. There isn’t a command grab or cross-through or unreactable mixup coming from a character-length away, and if he’s dash-cancelling a fireball then he still needs to win the throw/throw-bait mixup to capitalize on it at all. Yes it’s frustrating to sit through long pressure strings, but they’re not that long, there’s plenty of pushback, double roundhouse even has pushback and is very shadow counterable, if he’s at +1 and only in range for a heavy button then there’s a good chance that your character has a button that can legitimately challenge or you can jump or even just backwalk or backdash and not worry about the overhead.
If anything, instinct gives Jago a legitimate way of converting his throw, which he has to work hard for, into something with a decent meter-to-lifeswing tradeoff. Most of the time Jago lacks the dirt, the multiple varied potent mixups, that several other frame trappers in this game have with which to capitalize on pressure.
Jago is a good character, but this idea that he’s “probably going to hit you once” is wrong. Wulf is probably going to hit you once. Riptor, or Orchid, or Spinal, or Fulgore, or Thunder, or Mira, any of those characters is probably going to hit you once. Jago is totally blockable by an absolutely, degenerately patient player.
lol, I’m actually with you on this one.
Come on man…that’s a very broad brush to paint with and you know it. Jago’s pressure isn’t “just don’t get hit” in the same way Riptor’s tail flip isn’t always “just block it.” People get hit by much slower moves with some regularity, even at high level. Jago’s pressure isn’t some shoddy string of moderately bad buttons with a 30+ frame pillar of light under it to let you know something nasty is coming (and for the record, people get clipped by shatter all the time too). And it certainly isn’t mundane pressure in instinct, where he’s locking you in block stun with fireballs while he comes in behind it the overhead/low mixup. I think the argument that he’s somehow not particularly threatening in instinct is borderline disingenuous. 
Not to mention, instinct->punish is kinda a thing, so no, getting touched by Jago in instinct really isn’t some far-fetched proposition. It’s actually pretty hard to beat on a character with as many tools as Jago has without ever doing anything he can instinct cancel punish. Even if he does windkick->DP->instinct cancel, he’s still in your face, and now you have to deal with button->fireball->another button->etc.
Not in the same way. With Riptor you’re looking out for the tailflip, the fake frontal tailflip, and the predator MK overhead, whilst also considering the possibility of unreactable predator HP overhead, as well as thinking about maybe teching a throw that could be ticked into after pressing MK four times, backed up by a deadly fast jump bait.
The difference is that your mental focus is being pulled in several different directions, whereas with Jago you’re expecting the overhead so it’s nowhere near as much of choice reaction as Riptor’s suite of mixups.
Sure, I went a little far the other way with my counterargument here. But Jago isn’t on the “guaranteed to open you up” Wulf tier of offensive dirt by any means, and I do think there’s a clear strategy that generally beats his pressure that plenty of players are just too impatient to run. You have a legitimate shot at not getting opened up by Jago in instinct.
Why does Jago have to work hard for a throw? He can pressure you into blocking with all of his plus frames, or pressure you into blocking even at negative frames such as after a wind kick with the threat of a DP.
Also with regards to the Riptor example, while its true she has more potential options for a mixup you don’t take into account the safety of those options, nor the relatively weak defences she has. You may have less things to worry about against Jago, but if you block his overhead, so what?
The overhead may be reactable but it is definitely amongst the faster overheads in the game and will catch people quite often. When you hit people with the overhead do you think to yourself “wow you’re bad”? Do you think this when Thompxson hits people with it? When people get hit by slower overheads without multiple side options like Riptor has (such as Orchid, Eyedol, s3 Wulf) do you think those players are bad? The reason I ask these questions is you seem to be suggesting that you shouldn’t get opened up by Jago in instinct and I can’t say I agree with your reasoning.
This seems to be getting out of hand, so before it becomes toxic I just want to cut this down to one, hopefully clearer take on the matter at hand.
What triggered this argument is @STORM179 saying this:
To me, this is something you say about Wulf, or Riptor. Those characters are going to open you up if they have frame advantage and you choose to be degenerately patient, unless you get an amazing read on the mixup (or in Wulf’s case, possibly several mixups unless you’re willing to risk challenging the dashthrough). As far as I’m concerned, “probably going to hit you once” means that Wulf/Riptor tier of pressure game.
I don’t think you’re necessarily a bad player if you sometimes get hit by Jago’s overhead, but I think you don’t have your reactions down (or you might have a bad input lag situation) if you’re almost never blocking them. I’ve seen enough entire instincts wasted away because a competent Jago just didn’t manage to crack a solid defender who didn’t do anything special other than downback and switch to back occasionally, and I disagree that that’s evidence that the Jago player is playing poorly.
I don’t think it’s an understatement to suggest that Jago is at most 50% as good as Wulf or Riptor at opening an opponent up, a situation I think is misrepresented by the phrase “probably going to open you up”.
If I’m wrong, and Jago is closer to 80% as good at convering plus frames into openings as these pressure monsters, then I think that’s a huge balance problem and that Jago is probably overpowered, because Jago clearly has better defense, a better meter situation, generally better damage (not just higher lifeswing per opening in instinct), and is overall a more well-rounded character. Wulf and Riptor probably have better neutral, but I don’t think that’s enough – they need substantially better pressure, too.
But yeah, those are my thoughts. If they represent something substantially different from my prior claims, then I apologize.
I’m at the point of agreeing with this – not because I’m all that concerned about big unbreakable two-bar lifeswings in instinct (if there’s anything I miss about season 2, it’s that characters still had dirt and nobody gave a ■■■■ about this lifeswing – which was bigger back then! – in comparison), but because I just think there will always be a kind of “scrub magnet” aspect to lifegain, where people getting it cherish it and people facing it loathe it far more than is warranted. It’s just a very dull mechanic. The “inverse” mechanic of spending life to do powerful things is just about always more compelling, and usually goes underrated until it surprises everyone.
But like I’ve said above in a few ways, I think Jago’s instinct is a sideshow. If his pressure is nearly as good as Wulf and the like, then I think either widespread buffs or significant core Jago nerfs are in order, so I just hope IG rips the bandaid off quickly.
I think Jago’s offense is strong and, while technically possible to block overheads forever, you’re likely to get hit by a stray one, blocking forever gives Jago a ton of meter which is less than ideal (because when you go back to playing neutral, you now have to deal with shadow wind kick and shadow endokuken), and I think Jago’s throw game isn’t nearly as bad as his short range makes it seem. Fireball dash cancel helps him a lot, for sure, to get in range of throws. And it’s actually up to your opponent to know the range better than the Jago player, because even if you’re slightly out of range of throw, the opponent could still easily flinch and fall for a throw bait (like neutral jump). In a fast-paced KI match when you are focused on reacting to the 19f overhead, it is super hard to also know the range of Jago’s throw well enough to preempt your reflexes from teching. Also, if you are looking to block overhead, Jago can just walk in and try a shimmy frame trap situation, which is really scary because of +2 extra block frames.
I think Jago is strong but I think he’s good for the game when he’s strong, and after punishable shadow endokuken I think they’re better off leaving him alone. I’m okay with the lifeswing in instinct, even if it’s strong (I wouldn’t want to go back to S1 instinct, which is weaker but IMO much more degenerate; pop it after round 1 KO, do a boring combo with max life swing, and then start round 2 with full meter is, like, super optimal way to play this. At least if Jago tries to do such a thing in S2/S3, he is giving up both meters and gives up half the damage swing he would get if he used it in the middle of a match). Also, the fact that Jago’s instinct is weak at the start of round 2 means that there is a big choke point at the end of round 1 that can hurt him more than other characters, who are usually happy to pop instinct at the start of round 2.
I don’t think that’s true. I tried to argue that substantially better pressure game (particularly converting a frame advantage situation or a knockdown into an opening prior to losing their offensive turn) is a key motivation for picking Wulf or Riptor over Jago, because I think the former two characters lean on pressure to lift the entire aggregate in a way that Jago doesn’t. I think it was a pretty holistic comparison.
Hm, let’s try some things. With instinct stocked, two meters:
wind kick → heavy auto → medium auto xx instinct cancel, double fireball, button xx ender, shadow fireball, dash forward shadow fireball, dash forward flipout/sweep
wind kick → heavy auto xx instinct cancel, double fireball, button xx ender, shadow fireball, dash forward shadow fireball, dash forward flipout/sweep
One meter:
wind kick → heavy auto → medium auto xx instinct cancel, double fireball, button xx ender, shadow fireball, dash forward flipout/sweep
wind kick → heavy auto xx instinct cancel, double fireball, button xx ender, medium/heavy wind kick xx shadow fireball, dash forward flipout/sweep
If I totally agreed with everything you’re saying, I might believe I’ve just created a Jago-branded instinct blender.
The bit about blowing all his resources is already a tad dubious to me, because Jago often and easily gets a bar off the next pressure string in instinct thanks largely to the meter gain off of blocked fireballs – an area where even I have asked for nerfs.
The other thing is, are you also saying that you think Jago is close to as good at pressure as Wulf but worse at vortex outside of instinct? I mean, you did the numbers yourself: Jago’s vortex ender is his best ender. If picking Wulf gives you diminishing returns on pressure, then it probably gives you diminishing returns on vortex too. Have I read you wrong somewhere in here?
I don’t entirely agree with this. Jago’s ranges are basically a function of the frame traps he’s thrown out, as soon as he’s done one (or two in the corner) you’re out of range. I guess KI is a pretty scrambly game, so I’m probably understating the strength of Jago’s throw game a little, but I also think that scramble works the other way a bit: Jago whiffing throws due to not enough walk-in, defenders doing scrambly things to blow up frame traps, etc.
I still think that there’s a lot to gain from far better throw range and one or two more substantial combo-opening mixups, though. It just seems silly to think otherwise. Jago is still going to push himself out to this weird scramble range beyond crMK range where he doesn’t really have tight frame traps something like once for every time he gets something to connect, whereas Wulf and Riptor should almost always be able to sprinkle in one of their many mixups amidst their (better) frame traps pretty much every time they get an offensive turn, not to mention that they’re better at prolonging said turn than Jago is.
Wow, guys, this has gone WAY off topic. Please discuss this somewhere else.
Agreed. This is one of many issues I have with Jago as a character. His instinct, crucially, can be activated when fireballs are in mid-travel, providing the already released fireball with the instinct fireball’s properties. THis, I feel, is unfair, though possibly a discussion for a later topic. However, the fact that he can gain meter, instinct cancel off an ender, then gain a significant portion of life back without the opponent being able to do anything at all I feel is overpowered to varying degrees.
I also believe that juggles are far too overused/overpowered in their own right, but again, another discussion for a separate thread, as it’s quite a subjective viewpoint.
I’m not a fan of it, but it’s not overpowered.
Yeah I think Jago won’t be able to do two frame traps and then walk up and throw easily. But I do think he will be able to, at range, press a button and sometimes cancel it into fireball dash, and sometimes not, and even if your dash is not in range for throw, the sudden 18f dash coming at you will instinctively cause people to do something they weren’t really thinking about (and that is usually try to tech a throw).
I don’t disagree that Wulf/Riptor/whoever have better and longer lasting pressure with scarier mixups, just that “hold down back and react to overhead” is one part but not the complete picture of how to stop Jago instinct pressure. If Jago’s instinct is scary enough to even create scrambles in the first place (ie, people feel the need, subconsciously or not, to press buttons), then Jago will sometimes (probably often, due to +2 frames) capitalize on that. And if it’s not scary enough to force button presses, then Jago is pretty free to build meter and attempt shimmies and get back in with dash cancels, without risk of double roundhouse shadow counter.
This is primarily why I am happy that teching throws in KI is so hard, and why games with difficult throw defense are usually more interesting. If teching a throw amidst Jago’s pressure is super easy and risk-free (ie, like SF4’s OS techs that require frame-perfect calculations to blow up, and arguably SF5’s mid-screen jump back OS stuff), then yeah I’d think Jago probably doesn’t get much vs. a good player.
