Balance Suggestion: Removing Juggles After Resource Enders

Or, you know, people could just use launcher ender and get the health/curses that way…[quote=“Fnrslvr, post:20, topic:16832”]
I guess more broadly I think you’re trying to establish a sacred cow, and I think KI is a game about slaughtering those.
[/quote]

True, but hey it’s a harmless discussion and the devs encourage expressing your thoughts and ideas for the game.

I feel that Jago players that use meter ender then IMMEDIATELY get to use it for health regain is sort of degenerate. the launcher ender is used for follow up juggles, but if you have no reason to use it because another ender has the same result (with a superior bonus btw) then why use it?

Characters like thunder had their meter ender nerfed (no set up after) because the follow from getting meter was really strong. I feel like enders in this game should stick to what they are assigned to do. Exchange enders should have little to no set up frames because they are used to position you better n the screen. Launchers are used to enhance your damage output by changing the way your opponent has to break your combo.

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Difference is that I’m suggesting Jago and Spinal wouldn’t have to spend existing resources on these new enders.

I’m not suggesting that the discussion is harmful, I just happen to disagree with the ideas you’re advancing.

Personally, I think resource enders giving different rewards for certain characters is actually a great boon for the game and helps make playing the character interesting. It’s fun for Jago players to be able to meter ender > health regen while in instinct as it gives his instinct extra use and rewards creative play. Think about how cool that was figuring out that tech back in the day? I’m sure Jago players were singing to the heavens about it! Meanwhile, in the case of Spinal, I think taking away the ability to juggle off of his resource ender was removed not only because of being able to apply curses, but using a cr.HP manual in the juggle rewarded him with an extra resource (and I believe he still gets the skull even if you break the combo but I’m not 100% sure on that).

If anything, I wish Shago was able to juggle off of meter ender midscreen more consistently. St. MK/HK is either 1/2f timing to land depending on the level of the ender whereas Uppercut’s hitbox is just a hair shy of hitting the opponent. I honestly wouldn’t mind giving Shago extra juggle capabilites as I feel there’s some really fun things he could accomplish off of it if the opponent was just a pixel or two closer to him during the launch part of his meter ender. I can understand why that might cause more harm than good as he could just keep juggling until he has a net loss of meter gain from the ender but I feel it would increase his chances of being more fun to play without it being degenerate. It would reward people with exceptional juggling skills, would be exciting to watch and wouldn’t do that much extra damage as Shago’s damage output is extremely low to begin with.

Sorry for the off-topic there but I just wanted to give my thoughts on what could be done for a character that has extra benefits off of his resource ender. Please feel free to tell me how wrong I am!

I’m honestly shocked Shago doesn’t have a dedicated launcher ender.

Being completely honest and biased here, Jago already gets health and a full bar off his batter ender in instinct, I don’t think he deserves to get more health off that bar as well. But hey, there’s more to this topic than just Jago.

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The reason why I think he doesn’t is because it’d technically be redundant for him as his throw is already a pretty good launcher in and of itself but who knows what the reason could be.

I can understand not wanting Jago to be able to get extra health off of his battery ender as it feels overkill at times. As a hypothetical, what if (shadow)fireballs depleted his instinct like how Tusk’s instinct does so that way he couldn’t keep gaining life back as much? Personally I’d want him to be able to recover a sliver more life if that was a change that happened but I wouldn’t mind either way. This is all hypothetically speaking of course as I feel Jago is in a good spot at the moment balance wise and wouldn’t want to touch him.

Yeah we’re kind of going off topic. I’m trying my best from this thread becoming the “nerf Jago” thread lol

I completely understand. Now to get back on topic. I think Aganos should be able to launch the opponent high enough off of payload ender to be able to place a wall and then hit them through it!

Kappa :^)

Overall, I think having certain characters get certain rewards off of certain enders is more than fine. I think it helps promote diversity amongst the cast and is a fun extra bit of gameplay for the people that are dedicated to those characters.

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I know, I know, but I think that is sort of unavoidable.

Honestly, I think in a good smattering of cases (Jago, Glacius, etc) this could be a fair and welcome change. But I think it would hurt some way more than others, because of the whole tier/balance thing - specifically Shago.

I think any and all such changes should really be examined and determined case-by-case, but for the most part this could be good. Just maybe leave Shago out of it, the poor guy. :cry:

This one little thing I don’t agree with, unless a dev has said or will say otherwise. I have been under the impression that Exchange Enders are multifunctional Launchers or HKD’s (varies case by case) since I started playing this game. They aren’t strictly better or worse than their non-exchange counterparts because whether or not you wanna swap sides will be situational. But I don’t think Exchanges should just do that and nothing else, cuz that’s lame yo (and almost everyone has something to lose from a change to their current versions).

[[soz for double post, I’m sorta catching up and editing as I go]]

It’s a choice between health and just having that bar. We’ve established already that the juggle opportunity is useless for anything else unless Jago has the corner to convert it into HKD/flipout oki. The amount of life gained if Jago chooses to hold onto his meter is tiny and could be removed without anyone caring.

Whilst I really don’t mean to aggravate, how else did you expect this thread to turn out? It seems like you’ve dug up an obscure Spinal change from the start of the season, to identify a vague principle and cross-apply it in a way that justifies getting rid of Jago’s de facto lifegain ender, which you clearly don’t like dealing with. You’re asking for a nerf, and I don’t think suggesting buffs could be applied to compensate for that nerf is all that substantial considering that

  • With Jago’s standing in peoples’ mental tier lists currently, a lot of people would howl at any buffs, even if they came alongside nerfs; and
  • You’re talking about rolling the dice on a buff that you might not end up caring about to compensate for a nerf to something you obviously care about. Even if you do end up caring about the compensatory buff, who’s to say you won’t be asking for that to go later down the road, too?

You’re yet to take my hypothetical seriously, too. And again, this isn’t meant to aggravate, or intended as an attack of any kind. But if you’re asking for a nerf, just come out with it. We should be able to do that without turning this into the ■■■■■■■■■ that the competitive community had over counter breakers, even if we are emotionally invested in the specifics of the situation.


Anyway, whilst I certainly wouldn’t verbally abuse Keits or join a lynch mob or get particularly toxic over this the way that a lot of competitive players have over various season 3 changes, it’s probably worth me noting that I didn’t agree with substantial parts of the season 3 rebalance in the first place, including finding the Spinal rework a tad dubious. My impression was that IG was bringing offensive potency down a notch or two and taking damage out of the game in a number of places for reasons of “fairness” that I don’t think KI is really about, and I had the sense even then that those changes would lower the waterline and expose Jago’s strengths in a way that’d later have people baying for nerfs to Jago’s precious, beautiful frame data, hitboxes, and overall gameplan. I’m on record questioning changes to things like Wulf’s overhead prior to the start of the season. I miss strong Kan-Ra and Spinal, among others. I hate the notion that balance should deliberately ensure that certain archetypes don’t become top tier because they’d be “unfun”, I think that leaves people feeling like labbing up a character isn’t worth it because the deck is already stacked against the “unfun” ones.

I guess at this point I’m going to put any changes to Jago under a magnifying glass, and I’m looking for nerfs to Jago that “save the furniture,” that don’t hurt medium wind kick or his frame traps mainly. If we’re going to see more Jago nerfs, I’m hopeful that it’ll come out of things like passive meter gain and a proper ender damage rework, because I think Jago can be made more interesting if he can’t just do launcher ender all the time – that is, outside of instinct.

A lot of these discussions seem to happen under the assumption that Jago always has instinct. I think that kind of discussion misses the forest from the trees. Jago gets two instincts a match typically, and one of them is nearly worthless if he can’t pop it and convert it into something before he loses his first lifebar. That’s not to say it isn’t one of the better instincts in the game, but I think people are obsessed with it (and in particular obsessed with lifegain – I think if you’ve taken competitive gaming in general seriously you’d notice that people generally think lifegain in any game is better than it typically turns out to be).

I don’t know how much I care about this particular proposed change, but at some point maybe I’d prefer if Jago just lost the lifegain entirely and picked up an instinct perk of a kind that isn’t typically less potent than it looks to an uncritical observer.

Whoa there, are you saying you think spinal isn’t strong as hell right now? Let’s not say things we can’t take back.

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lol, Spinal does seem pretty strong at the moment. I guess that doesn’t help my point.

OK, seriously, you are making A LOT of assumptions about me right now.

The concept of using the meter you just earned from the ender you picked to do free damage to the opponent sounds wrong to me no matter what character it is. Hell, Glacius and can do it and he’s my main.

Again, this is a just a curious idea I tossed out and my only real backup for it is “consistency.” If you don’t think it’s a good idea just say that.

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Okay, forget all the assumptions I’m apparently making. I still think that the hypothetical lifegain ender is important. Would you be okay with the lifegain ender?

His battery ender already gives him life back during the ender itself. He doesn’t need a separate ender for it.

We’ve covered this. His battery ender alone doesn’t give him 12% of a lifebar back for a level 4 ender.

Sorry, guess I missed it.

Still, I don’t see a reason for it. Plus, we’re getting off topic, so if you want to keep discussing it we should make another thread.

It’s completely on-topic. The point is, Jago already basically has a lifegain ender, there’s just this complication where he receives meter beforehand and the player has to do something to convert said meter into life. Yes there is more nuance to it than that and there are benefits and drawbacks to both arrangements, but the central question is this: do you care about this principle that characters shouldn’t be able to use their resources on a juggle right away, or do you just think such a lifegain ender is too much?

Put another way, if the next changelog for Jago read

  • Jago can no longer juggle after meter ender, including fireball juggles
  • New ender: lifegain ender!
    -Deals comparable damage to meter ender
    -Jago gains 3%/5%/8%/12% life from ender levels 1/2/3/4 respectively

Would you be satisfied?

Personally, I think if that lifegain ender is fine, then there’s not much reason to take issue with said ender being composed of a different ender plus a shadow move.

Yes. That’s what this topic is for.

I just think it’s completely unnecessary. If Jago wants health, just use the launcher ender.

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We’ve also covered this. Launcher ender requires Jago to spend a resource that he has prior to performing any ender, whereas neither the current situation nor the proposed lifegain ender require it. Just using launcher ender is clearly inferior to both the current situation and the proposed lifegain ender.