Ooh, ooh, I know! I know! Block and shadow counter!
…but that still requires meter, which again, I won’t always have. It means that I’ll have to pick and choose my battles (or set them up by training my opponent into doing what I want). This actually leads me into another issue: Aganos gains meter slower than everybody else.
It’s not just the grounded heavy attacks that go against Aganos, but the simple fact that everybody gets a bonus to their shadow-meter gain means that they will have more opportunities to remove chunks his using shadow attacks and/or open him up with shadow counters. This has become a boon for me, particularly where Shago is concerned. It’s so much easier for him to surge against Aganos now, because that’s considered a part of his shadow meter. This means that he has far more advantage in this matchup than ever before, and if there’s 1 thing I’ve learned, it’s that if Aganos has no chunks, an opponent with advantage is a very, very bad thing indeed (and even with chunks, the advantage on many moves is still good for removing them).
Yes, you can shadow counter, but that’s not what I meant. I was talking about how Aganos can avoid blocking st.HK in the first place. Is it reasonable to keep Jago out of that range? How do Aganos’s other pokes interact with heavy buttons (used in neutral) that Jago will be trying to use more regularly now? Aganos has strong pokes, and usually the reason people get rushed down is because they don’t properly punish/take their turn when their opponent is at minus frames, or they don’t anti-air a jump (they block instead and now get pressured). These are things you can control.
There are other ways Jago can get in though, even at a distance - his windkick (although likely a terrible option) is just 1 example.
Pokes are good, I know, and I use them frequently, but there are still certain heavy attacks that come in really fast from a range that out-distance Aganos’ pokes - Jago’s f+HK and Spinals low d+HK slide being perfect examples (and just about every character has them, since many grounded heavy attacks have a long-range version). Basically they could perform their attack, I could whiff on the poke, and they could punish me or block due to the whiff before I can attack again.
As for anti-airs, Aganos is unique. All of his anti-airs are relatively slow compared to other characters (naturally fitting his concept, I admit), which makes timing and spacing absolutely key, particularly moreso than with other characters, but are otherwise really good. It’s something I’m getting much better at, but have not yet perfected. His d+HP (or df+HP with) covers a lot of wonderful vertical space and even a decent distance horizontally, but is so slow that you almost have to anticipate or have chunks to hit with it (God forbid their jump-in hits multiple times ala Kan Ra, Shago, or Kim Wu). His other anti-air poke, b+LP, while faster, is still relatively slower than most other antir-attacks from other characters. Even worse, it covers a weird angle too that’s really high up. This means that you’d have to hit them as they jump into it (predicting their jump) or hit them at the apex of their jump, assuming the don’t hit you out of it with an attack in the process (or trade with a chunk). The good news is that I’ve learned that his standing LP can actually make a pretty decent anti-air against pre-jump frames or if you have proper spacing. Sadly, the d+LP is much, much slower - as is his jumping LP - I never quite understood why that is, since it’s effectively the same attack.
With chunks, this doesn’t work! See? Chunks still have a use!
Jago wishes he could outrange Aganos with fwd+HK. It’s a great poke but it doesn’t win many range wars.
Anti-air flick is 6 frames (with no chunks, I believe), which probably means he has the fastest non-special move anti-air in the game, not the slowest. It has to be the fastest, because Aganos’s hitbox is so tall that he has to anti-air sooner than other characters. Shadow ND is ridiculous as an anti-air for the attacks it works on. So, he has a low damage (but fast) anti-air, and a metered special move anti-air that starts a combo. Not too shabby, really.
After having spent a week with it, I’m getting used to it. Still a few kinks to work out, and at least 1 thing I still disagree with (the stagger on hit with a thrown peacemaker), but I’m getting there.
My 1st truly great set for S3 occurred in gold-tier ranked leagues last night against a Top 32 player. I made a clip montage of its greatest moments, recognzing both players (myself and my opponent) - if you want to give it a watch, it’s the clip called “Battle of Dragons” under my XBL profile. I highly recommend it.
Glad you’re coming around to liking the changes. While he still has his challenges (like any other character), he is extremely fun this season! One of my favorite things to do is to push opponents away with a normal, grab a wall that was behind me and reposition it right back behind them! Even teleport characters are more fair to deal with now. (They can still pose a threat of course, but I feel I can threaten them a bit more myself.) Overall, the satisfying, fun, and challenging character that was s2 aganos is now even more fun to use with the new “recylcing/more recycling” options on approaching the battle.
I’ve already figured out how to deal with teleporting characters. At the start of the fight, put a wall directly behind you and keep your back to it at all times, with at least 1 (or more) other chunk(s) as armor. This way, you discourage them from teleporting behind you (or even crossing you up), because it would immediately trap them in between you and the wall (which, of course, is a very dangerous proposition for anyone) and more than likely forces them to make the choice to stay in front of you, where you’re not as vulnerable. This reduces their options while still giving you yours.
There are still options for teleporting characters to counter this method (Fulgore’s teleport cancel into DP comes to mind), but as long as you’re aware of what those options are and are ready for them, you should be fine (for example, if I see Spinal or Hisako teleport, I have a natural inclination to jump backwards to cross them up mid-teleport).
@Infilament: I can’t remember from the patch notes - is using Aganos’ peacemaker to put a wall either behind him or behind his opponent faster than doing it without the peacemaker? I know it’s faster for chunks, but I am still sketchy regarding the walls (I ask because I think it is, but it doesn’t appear to be faster at a glance).
@GalacticGeek Yes, recycling Peacemaker into a wall is a few frames faster than doing it raw. It also resets the wall’s health so it’s a nifty cycle to implement after hard knocking down someone with either overhead or sweep Peacemaker.
Thanks for the answer, but if you don’t mind, I’d like proof. I still don’t see the frame advantage and there was nothing said about it in the patch notes (only that it doesn’t use up your chunk armor, because it uses the peacemaker instead). As for renewing the wall’s health, I already knew about that part, but thanks again.
I went to the KIWC changes stream to see fi there was any mention of it and there wasn’t. Just going off what I could see, its faster to wall up from a Peacemaker, but not by much.
Are any other Aganos players having issues with input errors? I have had numerous instances where a standing HK comes out when I don’t want it to (usually when trying to activate instinct or just after doing so), or where shadow moves don’t come out when they’re supposed to (which leads to me getting punished severely), having to input some moves twice just to work, and even my block doesn’t often come out like it should (again leading to me getting punished severely).
This, on top of the aforementioned issues (avoiding grounded heavies, for example) have culminated in a game, that for me, is well, no longer fun anymore. I’m losing against players I know I can beat and am almost always losing because of things that are seemingly outside of my control.
As a player, I feel like that’s not right - I should have absolute control over the character that I play, but that’s not happening with Aganos like it did pres-S3. I should be able to make a mistake and know that it was MY mistake, and not some odd glitch with the game.
It’s not my controller either. I’ve tried at least 2 other separate controllers and it still happens. Furthermore, whenever, I play other characters, they’re as responsive as ever. So, yeah, not the controller.
So, is this happening to anyone else? I know CStyles made a thread about this kind of thing before, which further makes me think that it’s not just me. If this is indeed a fault of the game, and others are experiencing this kind of thing while playing Aganos, I think the @developers, should take a very close look at what’s going on under the hood.
The only problems I’ve had so far was a couple of times where I was going for Ultra and I would get either Light Natural Disaster or Shadow when the opponent was clearly in the danger zone. Other than that it’s been the same for me.
I recommend watching one of the replays where this happens with inputs on. Frustrating as it is, I know I’ve generally found that I did indeed have garbage inputs in there when something I didn’t want comes out.
