Aganos Changes in S3

[-] Normal attacks give more meter to the opponent on hit and block.
[-] During Instinct, a new Peacemaker respawns in 90 frames, up from 30 frames.
[-] Peacemaker attack damage reduced by ~20%
[-] Shadow Natural Disaster Linker damage reduced by ~30%
[+] Shadow Pulverize Linker damage increased by ~20%
[+] Damage on Natural Disaster and Pulverize Enders increased ~25%
[+] Adjusted launch velocity on the held part of Shadow Natural Disaster and fixed an issue where the Counter Hit version didn’t match to make juggle timing more consistent.
[+] Shadow Ruin startup now has 7 frames of strike invulnerability.
[+] Close Standing MP has a slightly wider cancel window for feel.
[+] Standing Far HP causes Stagger and is -5 on block (used to be -10).
[+] Hitstop on LK, MP, and HP Auto Doubles have been reduced slightly to match the reaction speeds needed to break the matching-strength Doubles better.
[+] It is no longer possible to shove Aganos’ body across the stage between rounds.
[+] Chunk Up recovers 6 frames faster.
[+] Wall Summon moves get the wall out 6 frames faster and recover 5 frames faster.
[+] Aganos can rip a Peacemaker out of the wall behind him in 34 frames now (down from 53).
[+] While holding a Peacemaker, the following non-peacemaker normals are now possible as command normals: -B+LP – Anti Air Flick, destroys your peacemaker
-F+HP – Both close and far variants of Standing HP, lets you keep your peacemaker.
-DF+HP – Crouching HP, lets you keep your peacemaker.

[+] Aganos will keep his Peacemaker while being hit, but it will still crumble if he is knocked down, put into a juggle state, or blown out.
[+] Thrown Peacemaker causes Stagger on hit.
[+] New ability: Recycling! If Aganos tries to Chunk Up while holding a Peacemaker, he will shove the Peacemaker into his chest instead of pulling a fresh chunk from the floor, giving him a drastically shorter Chunk Up animation (Only 39 frames, compared to 69 frames on the original version).
[+] New ability: More Recycling! Placing a wall with a Peacemaker in your hand turns the Peacemaker into a wall, instead of consuming a chunk.

So, what’s your take on the S3 changes to Aganos? It’s a simple question, so have at it!

Well you can store chunks on the screen now. I will be the Chunk Norris.

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The fact that I can now get chunks and walls faster is absolutely awesome, IMO - I’m going to be doing some major experimentation in practice mode to see where I can now do these things where I couldn’t before.

I’ll admit, however, the fact that grounded heavy attacks now ignoring armor is a bit of a scary proposition for Aganos, since it effectively buffs EVERYONE against him. The good news, however, is that since it’s a heavy attack, they’re still rather slow, and easily blockable.

I’m also personally upset that the peacekeeper AHEM! Peacemaker (sorry, still getting used to that) damage has been reduced as well, since I rely on that for great flat-damage mixups. It’s still great for mixups, but not so much for the damage anymore. :frowning:

The rate of respawn on the peacemaker during instinct actually scares me a bit, since, IMO, it was already hard to get another 1. You see, if you jump, it takes longer for it to come out, leaving you rather vulnerable - this only serves to make that much, much worse. In fact it’s about 3x worse, if I recall correctly… :’(

I think the new stagger effects are rather questionable with Aganos as well. For example, standing far HP was really good for a shadow payload assault setup in the current iteration from S2. Will I still be able to do that with stagger? Visually speaking (since I can’t test it yet), it seems to me like the stagger effect ends a lot sooner than the original pushback that Aganos still currently has for the time being, meaning that the aformentioned setup (and others like it) may not work anymore, further nerfing Aganos into the ground (pun fully intended). Also, what about his standing and jumping HK? Does that stagger now too? Or does that still have a lot of push-back into wall-bounce?

The all-new recycling and more recycling mechanics are really cool because they allow the golem to use his own resources he already has in different ways instead of just going to waste. So, if you have a peacemaker and would rather have a chunk, then there ya go. The fact that it’s also an even faster way to rechunk just serves to make it better all-around. As for peacemaker into wall, I think the animation looks a bit wonky (I would’ve liked to have seen him pushing the peacemaker into the ground rather than it just “breaking apart” instead), but is still really cool too. If you already have walls far behind you this could be a great way to start a setup for a double-wall crash. :wink:

…and finally - the ability to maintain the peacemaker upon getting hit in most cases (excluding knockdowns, juggles, and 1 other thing that I can’t recall) as well as being able to continue using many of his anti-air normals is going to be absolutley invaluable and is, IMO, the best buff he has by far (and I think most would agree). I’m mildly upset that this doesn’t really help him with some of his worst matchups (Sadira being the prime example, which I think actually has gotten worse for Aganos, considering her own buffs). I can’t wait to use the peacemaker version of his HP anti-air to hit someone into, or out of, the air only to then recycle the massive club into a wall behind my opponent. I like how it visually works too - it didn’t make sense that the club would break apart before when he used his OTHER “hand” to attack. Also, conersely, and also visually speaking, I can see why it breaks with the anti-air finger-flick, since that’s the hand that holds the peacemaker in the 1st place.

Well, I think I’ve covered all of my bases. What do you guys think?

That, IMO, was the pun of all puns right there. I was balling my eyes out when I heard that on stream. Way to go, Zerg! :wink:

Regading general changes, I’d also like to say that the all-new juggle mechanics and projectile options with a large part of the cast also looks like it will work against Aganos as well, as they will more easily be able to dish out damage without worrying about his chunks once they get him airborne. Projectil-wise, there just seems to be so many more of them! So much so, that I worry Aganos won’t be able to handle them, particularly with characters like Spinal in instinct who will likely just go ham with his new rebounding projectile ability. That being said, his shadow ruin is still a thing and is technically even better than it was ever before since it now has full invulnerability (which is far better than armor).

I’m not too worried about the frame nerf on the shadow counter when compared to the rest of the cast, since I mean, come on! It’s 1 freakin’ frame! What can you do with that!?

Should be a player card taunt. Instinct feels way more powerful IMO. You can get a free chunk,wall,or just use the peacemaker. I like the repair system. One hit left? Place it as a wall and grab it again. Opponent is far away and you are all chunked up? Place a few walls to store some chunks and increase your total chunk capacity. Also the thrown peacemaker staggering is great. Instinct suddenly became way more powerful. As for the peace maker nerf,mix ups are great and you can do them more often without being in instinct. Once the opponent is scared,just repair your peacemaker and nonstop pressure mixups. Aganos got buffed huge.

I think that’s largely questionable, especially with the way I have been playing him - I really don’t think I’m going to be using the recycling system all that much myself, since I generally already know exactly how and where I’m going to use my chunks. Furthermore, we haven’t really playtested these changes in tandem with the changes of the rest of the cast yet - I’m thinking they may seem like buffs right now, but once we finally get our hands on the new S3 build, it’ll be “so-so” and relatively balanced overall (which is, of course, good), but I wanted Aganos to, well, be a titan to end all titans, as it were.

There’s a couple of nerfs/buffs I’m forgetting about that I didn’t mention in my above posts. Remind me what they were, so I can offer my feedback regarding them, please.

A thrown peacemaker staggers. You can do a shadow roll to combo after it. Also something with shadow roll being more consistent.

That’s it! The more consistent shadow natural disaster recapture! Thanks!

I like this change a lot, because I hate the current version with a passion, but I’m also a bit confused with how it’s implemented and am curious to find out if it’s as good as I want it to be.

I find that while other characters are becoming more juggle happy, our resident golem is sticking to his roots and is getting better at forcing everyone else to stay grounded. Speaking of which, I love that he can no longer be pushed in between rounds (which is the other thing I forgot). I knew they were going to do that! It’s been a long time cominb and makes absolute conceptual sense (“he’s just too heavy!” - Keits).

His recycle option is clearly the best buff he’s gotten. Now you can use Instinct to get one hit of armor quicker than you were able to. And with Peacekeeper now able to stagger, it’ll keep the zoners honest.


Sorry about that…

Now that I’ve got the patch notes up above, I’ve come to realize that I forgot to comment on the shadow gain that my opponents will now get from all of Aganos’ normals. Simply put, I hate it!

So, now they’ll get shadow attacks/counters faster and can then use them against Aganos. This makes it easier for them to remove his chunks, in addition to the already buffed grounded heavy attacks, which ignore his chunk-armor entirely (and will still likely remove them on hit as well). Furthermore, with the buff that shadow counters get, they’re more likely to hit Aganos during the middle of various attack strings. For example, during the peacemaker command chain or perhaps possibly even during his foot stomp when up close (although I’d have to look at the frame data for this).

I really do not know if Aganos will benefit from all the changes. I always used combo breakers as a way to chunk up when I really needed to but with the new recovery on breakers this won’t be possible anymore. It was rather important for comeback situations. I like his improved peacemaker use though but on the other hand, peacemaker instinct spam is also gone.

I thought that the combo breakers only prevented you from activating instinct afterwards, not doing other things (I’ll look into this to see for myself and double-check). Sure, it may knock the opponent outside of your effective range as well (which will be pretty far for Aganos, I’m sure), but that should still give you enough time to chunk up, especially since it can be done faster post-update (which, BTW, can open up numerous new areas where you can chunk up as well, even if what you say is true, like with the all new recycling mechanics).

As for the use of peacemaker, if you were spamming it by throwing it, you were already using it wrong. You only throw it if you want to destroy their incoming projectiles, knock them back, or take the time to chunk up/place a wall. Otherwise, in my own experience as a seasoned Aganos player (I consider myself among the best, as do many others here on the forums), you are generally far better off holding onto it and performing a near full-screen 50/50 mixup with the standing HP and crouching HP or hit confirming into his chain combo using standing LP/MP to create a vortex upon block, allowing you a free follow-up attack and hit based upon how they blocked (for example, if they block high, then you can swing low as the next part of the chain combo and trip them up OR if they block low, then you can swing overhead as the next part of the chain combo and flatten them to the ground - both due to the initial blocked attack’s block stun. :wink:

Overall, the peacemaker it’s the most buffed aspect of Aganos. The sinergy between his meter and the peacemaker gives Aganos more meter managent, and improves a lot his neutral, and his extra moveset holding the peacemaker strenghts his defensive game while holding the club. The stagger when you throw the club it’s also very good, cause opens new punish posibilites.

I have to see how the new armor mechanics works. There are characters with very fast and long reaching heavies attacks that now can ignore Aganos chunks easily. This demands a real change in our gameplay.

I’m Ok with all the changes, I find them fair and interesting, but I still think that Aganos main problem isn’t being addresed. He still has the same anti air game, so he will struggle against the same situations, and given the new toys some characters have(Sadira new “bounce over your head stop” its the first to come to mind).

And also, I’m not sure, and its never mentioned, but maybe Aganos its a bit faster when fully loaded with chunks? Maybe it’s only me :S

I’m interested particularly in @LeoFerreis opinion about Aganos changes.

1 thing’s for sure - we’re going to be seeing a lot more of the peacemaker, both inside and outside of instinct. They’ll be more likely to activate instinct and place walls behind themselves (rather than their opponents) to get it, especially with the boost to Aganos’ frame data on those moves and more. I’ve been in the habit of putting up a wall behind my opponent at the beginning of fight to put the fear into them, especially if they try to jump backwards (which, IMO, is 1 of the best times to do it). The idea, however, of putting up a wall behind me, grabbing it, and using it to put the hurt on my opponent and then recycling it to a chunk before it breaks to increase my defense as they get back up? That’s absolutely tempting - there’s no doubt about that.

Because of this, you’re not going to see Aganos players continue to play within, say, sweep range, but rather from much further away than even that. Think about it - I’ve been playing the “keep-away” game with Aganos for a very long time, forcing them to come to me and preventing them from staying back by putting walls behind them when they get in closer (as they jump for example), and then wrecking them with my much longer reach once they’re in range; after that then I simply watch as the walls come tumbling down - with them underneath the rubble. Now, with these changes, it’s EVEN EASIER! You think people don’t like Aganos now? Oh, boy, they’re going to absolutely hate him when these changes take place!

Sadira may be good against Aganos, but I’ve recently learned that playing the “keep-away” game is 1 of the best strategies against her. She’s not as effective on the ground, and you can easily punish her air jumps provided you have the patience to watch her carefully and let her do her thing - that’s when you punish her, bring her back down to earth, and then bury her 6 ft. under.

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Eh? Who was letting you chunk up after combo breaks? :open_mouth:

Aganos is mixed bag for me. He was individually buffed very much, but one of the system mechanics in particular is a massive nerf to him. They basically made it easier for him to build and manage chunks, but also made it easier for the rest of the cast to work around them. The biggest buffs I think will the chunking speed and peacemaker options, and then the “can’t be pushed on knockdown” buff. That “feature” was a big contributor to his momentum problem in S2. The heavy hits ignoring (not stripping, just ignoring) armor will make him a LOT more manageable in the mid-range for a lot of the cast. Wulf and Hisako in particular I think, just got a lot of help in this fight.

All I will say is that I totally called him being able to turn a peacemaker into a wall

and no one believed me…

Well, I sure as heck didn’t, I admit. It just seemed too weird visually, and to me, even though it’s there now, it still does. I think they could’ve done better, graphically speaking.

Hmm… I think I remember @TempusChaoti saying that Aganos’ tweaks were taken from ideas that were given on the forums…

Placing a wall with club in hand consumes the club, not a chunk AND the club.


He doesn’t lose the club when hit.

You’re welcome.

Overall, I think it’s really good.

I think that’s true, but very often the correct balancing isn’t “this character has a weakness, let’s make it not-a-weakness anymore”. Instead, he gets a bit more utility which should help him return to his buffed up state, especially in Instinct (which arguably did the opposite in Season 2).

The change to armor sounds pretty bad (and probably will be in some cases), but in other cases it might not be so bad. For example, Orchid’s sweep was great for removing chunks because it has 2 hits and a hurtbox that low profiles everything. Now it will just lead to a knockdown. Also, now that your opponent knows they can beat you with heavies, they might be more willing to play the footsies game, where Aganos should win. One thing that might suck is pressing a standing MP and having it out-prioritized by a heavy with a similar speed, along with the armor being ignored.

As Keits said, now you have to play a smarter footsies game instead of just holding forward. You also can’t get away with doing wakeup jab whenever you want. I think it will be a fun challenge.